ddr70

You can check out my signature sets as ones I would add in addition to the ones I mentioned earlier.  Easiest to implement for PMG ought to be sets by Denomination OR Fr. # for the various series (original, 1875, 1882, 1902).  Sets by region might be fun, but hard to implement as would be sets by states--an IT savvy person could do this and hopefully PMG has IT savvy folks protecting us from cyber attacks (I'd prefer not having my credit card info hacked here :-).  First 100 charters is a fun set--I actually don't have one of those and for Small NBN collectors, 14000 and above charters are collected (that's a signature set I could start).  Here's a Small NBN signature set I did start--I also have the set in Large--The A-Z set 

Another smaller, but fun set using the Bank title information--here you find banks with Union in their titles.  

One concept borrowed from NGC is the lowball set.  Why don't we have these over here on PMG?  Here's mine--I actually compete this one, but it doesn't work correctly like the lowball coin sets.    Here's the set description:  These notes served the Nation and their communities and then survived to this day.  Where do your lowest grade notes shine?  In a lowball set of course.

So there's 100 other LSNBN sets besides the top 2 owners competing sets--that's 4 times more than Disney dollar sets.  Zibabwe has 14 different sets, so over twice as many sets as NBN sets.  
If you look at the top 3 in these 14 Zimbabwe sets, 8 are you.  Now that's fine and good for the Zimbabwe collectors as they have a place to display and compete their notes.  Ought to be more national bank note sets and I wouldn't have to make a 1902 type set for all of my favorite states (and two for PA and NY and MA).  

My complaint is about lack of sets--build a better place to compete Nationals and we ought to get more users and hopefully more sets with pictures to admire. 

On 10/22/2020 at 7:21 AM, Fenntucky Mike said:

So using the seal to fourth digit identifier would not be accurate 100% of the time, you would also need to take into account the font, spacing, tilt, "rubber stamped" look etc.? Are there some instances were there are no discernible differences between a normal production note and a replacement? 

No discernible difference--probably.  Also, paper has a bit of give and if it collects enough folds that makes these 'landmarks' tougher to use--so you might end up with a false positive or a false negative.   The other key thing to know--and you HAVE to know this one--PCGS has called more notes replacements INCORRECTLY (that's the old PCGS) and Heritage sold them as such, than ought to be acceptable to the collecting community.  Best example is Lake Village, Arkansas The First NB in Ch. # 13632 NOT a Replacement, but PCGS lists notes from the SN 1 sheet as Replacements!  The C position note sold 28 Apr 2013. You have the C position comparison above.  There's no mistaking a C position replacement on a Ty. 1.

On 10/17/2020 at 7:40 PM, Sheik Sheck said:

Nice read! PMG has been slow! 49 notes? I'd be catatonic waiting that long for so many children to return home. I finally got this 252 back from the same vintage as your Aug. submission. I love the serial number. Also, I added a St. Louie FRBN to my collection for Ebay price of $59! Love that SN score. 

 

Nice that Sands' signature appears as calligraphy.  The vertical on the L is thick as is the underline (horizontal) under Sands, so I suspect he just went back over those lines to make them thick when submitting the exemplars to the BEP.  Then again, I got "Cs" for penmanship 50 years ago :-(  400600 is a fun SN, but I'd prefer the repeater 400400.  I try to catch SNs on FRBNs, but I really don't pay as much attention to them as I do NBNs.  I do look at the Philly notes more closely.  Let me know if I miss one with a fancy SN that you don't want.  The HA block is funny (ha ha).  I should look for a nice AD block.  Have you found out more about Sands?  ad

Serial number and seals were printed simultaneously during normal production.  At the end the numbering head was lifted and a few sheets were printed with just the seals (no serial numbers).  These sheets were for any make up sheets  to replace damaged or otherwise unsuitable notes.  The serial numbers for make up sheets were done on separate 'paging' machines, one serial number at a time.  The operator basically eyeballed it and many times they were dead on.  We know this because one diagnostic for the paging machine is any C position note--the C is quite different from the C on the production numbering machines.  The Atlanta note is a replacement, it has just about perfect serial number positioning, but from the non-standard C's, it has to be a replacement.  The other diagnostic is the numbers looked rubber-stamped and tend to be mis-formed a little and sometimes there's ink splatter.

Some production runs will have a tilt to the serial number, but the diagnostics I show above on the Pittsburgh note stay the same (Right SN 10 mm above seal and line thru center of seals goes thru left side of 4th numeral, 28 mm from bottom of left SN to bottom of right SN).  So you can see on the Pittsburgh note different tilts, right SN too close to seal and line goes through the right side (not left).  I measured 28 mm and 10 mm from a $10 in hand and found HE TREASUR is 10 mm and SECURED BY UNITED STATES BOND (Half of the D) is 28 mm.  So I just use the picture of the note and MS Paint to cut and rotate those elements as my calibrated 'yard-sticks'.  Doesn't matter the size of the Pic, if I cut those elements out of the pic, they represent 10 and 28 mm, respectively.  [NOTE:  you need different elements for $5s and $20s to use as your 'yard sticks']

So, tilt is an indicator, but a lot of production run notes have a tilt.  The bottoms of the 0s just to the right of the 6 look incomplete and the Ds are less than perfect.  To say it looks rubber stamped, I need the note in hand to best make that call.  I think I see a tiny bit of splatter of ink, but you might see that much splatter on a normal production run note as well.  

Happy to advise on your NBNs.  Let me know what you have.  Sheik or I can probably tell you what you've got.

Below, Atlanta is a replacement, Merchantville has the normal Cs which bow inward at the tips.  The Atlanta note is in Sarasota with my Large Pittsburgh (252) note.  They want to come home so badly!

The Economy submission went from Rec'd to awaiting grading to grades posted in a few days and the package is close to home, but not yet delivered.  Maybe tomorrow.  I'll likely be scanning this weekend and updating sets.  The Bulk submission which arrived essentially the same day as the economy is still in the Received purgatory.  S no update on the Atlanta Replacement.

The Connellsville, PA note graded VF 20, so 5 points better than I thought.  No EPQ.  But it has RADAR SN on the labellebal  ;0  Since sending my notes off for grading I picked up my 3rd $10 VB n The Commercial NB of Columbus, OH (2605).  It doesn't have Radar on the label, but check out the bank sheet number!

Another week down; notes still stuck in Received.  Here's one of my small size NBNs waiting to be graded.

Now I want a descending pairs SN :-)  

On 8/4/2020 at 5:24 PM, G paper said:

Hi, I am a first timer to PMG. Can anyone give me some help on seeing the population reports for National notes?  

Kelly's 6th edition of national bank notes is a good entry level book on populations.  It's about 60-70 dollars.  Maybe you can find one used.  The census data is dated, but it doesn't change that much.  Track and Price subscription which is a yearly charge gets you auction prices and updated census data, but you miss out on data elements like treasury serial numbers.  Maybe the NBN census is the top of the line--not sure what the subscription is but I know they take paypal :-)

I just have Kelly--census comes on a CD.  So for example, the Security NB of Dallas shows 12 other $10 PBs not including David's with a number of CUs available.  Looks like it didn't issue any Smalls.  So not a ton of notes for the Big D, but not a though note to find.  For Bryan, TX (3446), I show 18 Lg, 23 Sm. and the database shows 3 other $20 PBs (and one DB), not including my note (in my TX set, link posted above).

I definitely will post the note in its new holder.  It will be like Christmas Day/BDay/Return from Overseas assignment Day combined when my notes arrive home safely!  I'd be OK with a F15 grade.  Not going to be a lot of points, but it would be hard to beat all the things this note has going for it.  The folks in Western PA got a lot of use out this $10.  I was a bit reluctant to give my grade, but I'm comforted by the fact that no one from PMG seems to read these journals--and I kinda trust their grading process.

Good eye, hard to beat that for a 65EPQ.  That should be about $200 on an Heritage auction; $500 on a LK auction :-)

The upcoming HA Dallas auction is starting to post pics.  It's got a ton of Texas notes!!

I've had that note on Bryan, TX for quite some time--5 years.  Five years ago is about when I really got into nationals and I've bought next to no coins since.  It's in my first name signature set too (along with Victoria and Clarksville, TX of course).  Seems like I only buy banks from towns that are first names on Texas. I had PMG certify it about 2 years ago and was happy with the VF 25.  No EPQ for Bryan :-(  I didn't know where Bryan was...   We could always do a trade one day.   I've been close to Victoria driving to S. Padre Isl.  My collecting goals are shifting more towards series of 1882 and if I can afford them original series notes.  Fancy SNs have been an interest for decades--I've never found one in circulation.  But I looked!  I have about 2 dozen with 5 digits and a few more if you count 4 or less digits--on large size nationals.  About a dozen are in Sarasota for grading right now.  

The Dallas note has the eye appeal.  Interesting 'flag' or pennant above the President's signature.Looks like JE Waggoner maybe.  Good name for a Texan.  Glad the paper got you an EPQ--those are nice and I like to get $20s when I can...

  I wonder why PMG went with scales for their newly designed holders?  What do scales have to do with paper currency?  Something like Electricity riding an eagle, maybe more appropriately covered with a draped flag, from a $10 Series of 1882 would have been nice.  Probably wouldn't go over as well in Asia though, not with the flag anyway.

In keeping with the Texas theme here, I'll share my series of 1902 TX set in it's current state (which would be more like Delaware in Size than Texas).  

I do have a Houston, TX The First NB Ch. # (S)1644 $10PB on the way to PMG.  Basically it needs PMG to give it a grade about 3 levels too high for it to displace my PMG 30 Victoria NB $10 PB, but the numbers are just cool... 220361/X16961 pp Q/111 

On 7/19/2020 at 6:31 PM, Sheik Sheck said:

She's all yours. It has been languishing for quite some time here. Check the price and you might see why. I'd love to have the mate for my $10 but I can't seem to pull the trigger here. 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/20-1882-Value-Back-First-National-Bank-Port-Arthur-Texas-CH-5485-UNIQUE-TYPE/182582292528?hash=item2a82c0b030:g:XrMAAOSwK6RZHlNi

I have had my eye out for my bday charter date. I found one that is one day before my bday:

 

Zowie! That's absurd.  Wait for the Kagins auction and it might start more reasonably.  Nice Richmond DB.  My VA set is in sad shape.  

V697873 was the last Treasury SN used on a Value Back; in this case the bank receiving that sheet wasn't recorded by Huntoon.  Your note is rather low in the V numbers, so likely it was sent off to Port Arthur late in 1919, or maybe 1920 before the need for the First to renew its charter and issue Plain Back of series 1902 (my wife would like the charter date as it's her birthday--guess I should like it too :-).  With only T U and V used for 10-10-10-20 Series of 1882 Value Backs, it's surprising how under appreciated TEN is on the back of a note when compared to the Date Backs and Brown Backs of series 1882 Nationals.  Sadly, I don't have any Arthurs in my First name signature set.  I'll keep my eye out for that $20 VB!  

Pretty sure The Hanover NB was 1st.  I know because of this note in Heritage's archive:  $10 Red Seal, F-VF  SN 5497/A5497 pp F/2.  I know (for sure) it's from a 4x$10 sheet because the font on the serial number is the new font introduced in 1903.  If it was from a 3x10-20 sheet it would be the old font for SN A5497.  Then since the bank SN 5497 = the treasure SN A5497, its from the first run.  I don't think any treasury SN exist without the prefix letter.  A prefix ought to be the first run. 

For 3x10-20 sheets, it wasn't until treasury SN B241777 that the new paging machine was used with the new font sometime in 1903.  It would be good to know if the Hanover only had plate letters A-C for their 3x10-20 sheets and D-G for their 4x$10 sheets--I suspect so, but I could be surprised.

Seems more engravers did not cross their ts then did.  Could be the style taught at that time, I don't know.  I got Cs in penmanship.  So I was lazy last time and didn't look at Heritage and the answer is there with only 3 $10 red seals on The Hanover NB (including yours) archived.  All three are from 4x$10 plates.  Here are the SNs plate letters and back plate numbers:

F-VF 5497/A5497 pp F/2
PMG 30 SN 18309/A390378 pp G/9
PMG 25 SN 22418/A396987 pp D/1

Since a note from a 4x$10 plate (first use was in 1906) has a bp number 1, they obviously started at 1 despite having used bp 1 on 3x$10-$20 sheets a few years earlier.  Face Plates D, E, F, and G were made (only missing an example of the E in the archive)  The odd thing is bp 1 showing up on SN 396987!  They got a lot of use out of that back plate!!   The best note is the one with the bank SN = treasury SN which proves The Hanover was the first bank to order sheets of 4x$10s [I'm surprised Heritage did not note that].  That's quite a large order.  5497 X 4 X $10 = $219,880 (at least).  Maybe you could check T&P and see if there are any more $10s there (only T&P doesn't record treasury SNs  ).  So need another source of data...  oh well.

I guess I should join in on LK auctions.  I never have.

Oh goodness, not sure that's good with the shill bidding plus notes that aren't quite as expected.  I know of some shenanigans with certain ebay sellers.  In the past it was much easier to see because you could find out the ebay ID of your competition--it's blocked now.  I once did a 'buy it now' only to have the seller return my payment with item 'no longer in stock.'  I thought I lost that one.  However, I won the exact same note (same PMG holder) a few weeks later on a Heritage auction and paid just a few dollars more than my eBay purchase price. After commission, the seller lost more than I, but Heritage did well.  Not shill bidding, but not a good practice to have a note on ebay that's consigned at auction elsewhere.  I've actually gotten some good deals from that seller just recently on eBay.

8 hours ago, Sheik Sheck said:

PMG should definitely be more creative with more National sets. I think they would do the hobby a big favor to add more resources to PMG and think more out of the box regarding new sets. I would think they could build a state NBN set, city sets, regional, interesting name sets, all kinds that would attract all the NBN collectors. DDR70 has some great ideas in his signature sets. For instance the FR# set. I find I have to create another DUPLICATE set to continue to add the plethora of notes, for instance like the Type 1 $10 NBN that I seem to purchase in copious quantity. So many duplicate sets are boring! I guess us note collectors are the ugly little sister of the numismatic world. NGC has 15,647 registered coin sets whereas PMG has only 986 registered note sets, so perhaps there is no motivation. But there is such a rabid fan base of NBN collectors it sure seems like PMG would be more cognizant of the homely sister and her NBN's. 

Hey PMG!!! More NBN sets!!

 

Yes, more! Thank you!  I had no idea coin sets to note sets was ~16 : 1.  It's about 2:1 for me.  I know NGC is giving lots of free grading away for top sets.  I'd like some of that from PMG.  I'm not sure the folks with the top sets on NGC really need free grading...???  And now I'm wondering how I get a look at Sheik's small size nationals collection?  Think about 10 bucks in the '30s.  My dad would hitch a goat up to a cart and with a buddy (whose father owned the grocery store) cart sodas and ice cream to road construction workers and sell them for a nickel.  Yep, they had a refrigerated goat cart (OK, ice box on cart with goat (une chevre)). They got to eat the ice cream that didn't sell.  Hmmm, I never asked him if he got liberty or shield nickels along with buffalo nickels in the Depression.  Probably got 5 beat up 'pennies'.

So do you focus on Texas or the Southwest for those ty. 1 $10s??  Is there a link to a signature set you could share???  Did you know your Knoxville Ch. 10401 note was a PMG top pop for that Fr. #596?  Too bad no extra points for rarity of the bank nor Fr. # for that #1 1902 type set of yours.  Over on NGC that would be like a semi-key 1908-S Indian Cent getting the same points as a 1908--coin collectors would scream!  [you scream, I scream we all scream for ice cream]

I've rambled on enough.  Here's my signature set of 1902 Nationals by Fr. #.    That's got to be an easy set to add for PMG followed by the series of 1882 and then Originals and then all Large NBNs by Fr. #.

I think there's demand for a lot more.  There was on the PCGS registry when it was running.  The problem is if you look at the chat boards, what you find is new user questions mostly.  If you look at responses to journal entries, well there's little.  People are busy and don't take the time to fuss (unlike me).  You have to log in a 2d time to comment (or give me a sad face, confused face, haha face, or a trophy-like).  Not worth the effort to put something out there.  So, if you look at https://www.pmgnotes.com/registry/, the banner says "The Ultimate Destination for Currency Collectors".  Not true when PCGS Currency Registry was around--it was better .  Truer now that PCGS Currency is no longer (and I'm glad I adopted PMG more so than PCGS, but I have both).  Will the ANA have a currency registry like the coin side of the business?  Anyhow, the "ultimate destination" would have already built out much more not just for nationals (I dabble in Canadian notes too and Canadian Charter bank notes).  More sets or change "ultimate destination" TO "mildly interesting destination" or "kinda boring, but we got no competition for now destination".

Oh, I need to mention another PCGS favorite of mine, the back plate number (bp).  PCGS recorded it (and occasionally they got it wrong).  If you pay $12 to $?? to have your note certified, you'd think the bp number would be noticed and added to the description of the note.  It ought to help verify authenticity.  PMG records bp #s on mules and the errors involving the bp #, but that's it.  Why not record bp #s from now on especially with the new look holders?  

The easiest new set to implement has to be Large Size Nationals by Fr. #.  This info is already in the PMG database.  Sets for Originals, Series of 1875, 1882, and 1902 by Fr. # come to mind.  The old PCGS registry had sets for States and State Capital sets, large and small.  That's likely harder to implement as I think all that PMG has data-based is the charter number, so a lookup table by charter number likely is required to get to the bank info (i.e. state and city).  An A-Z Town name set would be nice.  Oh right, a lowball set could be interesting.

That Knoxville, TN $20 note is a radar bank serial number and the charter number 10401 is a radar too!  Sheik has a date back on that charter which is a very tough Fr. # (well, it's just the top pop for an Fr. 596).  For some reason he won't sell it to me cheap :-)

I know a lot more about Zimbabwe because of your collection--they are beautiful notes.  Thanks for the reply!!

Imagine grading the Bebee collection down in Sarasota!  That would have been fun.  I'd be the one stuck grading 10,000 consecutive 2019 $1 notes courtesy signed by Pelosi and Trump... ugh.

One question I have (Q1) is if the BP #s for $10 4x$10 sheets started at 1 to n and if the 3x$10-$20 sheets did the same.  Thus my check above on the Philly and Marietta bank's choice--both ordered only the 3x$10-$20 format, so no answer there.

Then the question (Q2) is how much variation is there on a sheet (limited by the number of sheets to examine).  

Your New York, NY The Hanover NB $10 RS is interesting since the Hanover issued both formats.  I can't quite make out the bp number (why doesn't PMG record BPs?).  I think it's a 6 or 9; definitely 1 digit.  So, that's likely from 1906 or 1907 as the 4x$10 format was first produced in 1906.  So the task is to search archives for other $10 RS from The Hanover and find the same 6 or 9 bp.  Based on the treasury SN, you can tell what format the note came from.  And we might learn Q1 above.

I probably should spend my time looking for engraving errors like the pcblic error on Woodchopper notes :-(  That's a tough one to see.

Given my current post and minor obsession on my Arkansas notes and banks that issued sheets of 4x$10s (as opposed to sheets of 3x$10-$20s), I checked on Marietta, OH The Central NB Ch. # 5212 and Philadelphia, PA The Quaker City NB Ch. # 4050 and found both ordered sheets of 3x$10-$20.  So I still do not know why the Back Plate numbers differ and I still don't have a scope with a camera.