Fenntucky Mike

+6 = 2,830

5 Hryven +1

50 Hryven +2

100 Hryven +1

500 Hryven +1

2 Hryvni +1

On 3/29/2022 at 4:26 PM, ColonialCoinsUK said:

Languages have never been my strong point but I can figure out some Spanish names and numbers - I couldn't even attempt anything with a different alphabet so Asian languages etc are completely out, Russian, German and Ukranian is impressive . My excuse is that my brother must have got all the required genes as he speaks multiple languages and even does some translation work on the side.

Google is the source of my translations and then me translating whatever the google interpretation was. I'm fluent in google though.  My reference books are a fright, the translations/notations within and around the text is something to behold.  

On 3/29/2022 at 4:26 PM, ColonialCoinsUK said:

So with my limited vocabulary it looks like I have 18 notes covering 15 blocks and there are only an extra 7 blocks that I am currently aware of - yes a whole SEVEN notes. Given an issue of 100,000, albeit with alot of circulation, I would hope that a few more examples survived and they are out there somewhere. The other denominations and series appear to have even less examples!!

A sequence would be:-

00001-20000 ?
12001-14000 UGT
24001-26000 ?
36001-38000 UGT
48001-50000 UGT
60001-62000 ?
72001-74000 ?
84001-86000 UGT
96001-98000 ITE (vert)?

I would guess/predict notes with numbers in the missing blocks also have UGT as the control letters. For comparison 58-60K, 70-72K, 82-84K and 94-96K are all MA-A so the earlier blocks 10-12K, 22-24K, 34-36K and 46-48K may also be MA-A or at least all be the same. Could the apparent blocks of 2000 notes correspond to how they were shipped from the printer? there are examples where this happened rather than just consecutive numbers making up a shipment - another security measure? or it could all be rubbish.

How to crack the code? In the dos caritos 1 peso series some control letters are VILL-A, SCO-N, NCI-M, and FRA-L. So this would be FRA-NCI-SCO-VILL-A otherwise known as Pancho Villa - the only person I was familiar with before looking into the history of the period. In the 5 pesos dos caritos series some of the control letters seem to be the initials of the leading insurgents at the time F-V (the infamous Francisco Villa again), J-E-R (José E. Rodríguez) E-A-B (Eugenio Aguirre Benavides) etc, etc.

So names, initials, places etc seem to be an option - is L-AR referring to Leon (Domingo) Arrieta the leading revolutionary and short-lived Governer of Durango and is MA-A his brother Mariano Arrieta??

I am so glad that things are now electronic with 'saved searches' so it is now a waiting game and maybe a few more gaps will be filled in over the next 30 years or so.

I'm finding all of this way more interesting than I should, I may have to pick up a Latin American note in the near future. I never knew that the control letters were associated wither persons and places, fascinating! I'll keep an eye out for these and if I see any I'll let you know. 

On 3/28/2022 at 3:44 PM, ColonialCoinsUK said:

There seems to be even less info for the rest of Latin America, which are the only ones I have looked at so far, but I expect it is the same for most of the world - Ukraine??

Surprisingly, Ukrainian banknotes are pretty well documented, at least much more so than I thought when I started collecting them. I now have over a dozen individual references ranging from 1953 to 2021, the only problem with most of these is that I have to translate them from Ukrainian, Russian, German, ect. to English. What a pain. While none of the references contain all of the information, most of it is there to to be found. That's not to say there are not things to be discovered or misinformation corrected, but blocks of missing control letters for a single series as you have found would be unthinkable to me with Ukrainian notes, as that should be basic/commonly known information.  

For the control letters, you have 12 listed above, I find it less likely that multiple combinations were used within groups of 2000 and the sequence restarted after 12000. (My interpretation of your info above) I'm assuming that you have notes with the same control letters spanning a number range that includes notes with different control letters in it.  This is a very interesting project that you've taken on, I like to think that there will be some type of pattern to the control letters that you will unlock but more often than not the answer turns out to be... just because. 

+21 = 2,824

10 Hryven +1

20 Hryven +5

100 Hryven +2

200 Hryven +1

500 Hryven +3

1000 Hryven +1

2000 Hryven +1

1 Hryvnia +1

5 Karbovantsiv +1

25 Karbovantsiv +1

100 Karbovantsiv +2

250 Karbovantsiv +1

1000 Karbovantsiv +1

I'm surprised that there were so many unlisted control letters as Mexican notes have a pretty healthy following. Maybe less so with these specialized issues. It's interesting that this lot contained such a diverse selection of control letters, was this a former collection or a random lot pulled together by the seller?

Tracking serial numbers can be very useful/insightful, I'm sure you're doing the same but I keep a spreadsheet of certain notes listing known serial numbers, grades, sell prices, etc. and catalog images. I'll "dumpster dive" all auction sites and their archives, takes a while but it's time well spent. I would think you could have a pretty good list of these notes in short order. 

How many different sets of control letters do you suspect were used and was the vertical and horizontal orientation sporadic or a permanent change to how they were applied?

On 3/22/2022 at 6:19 PM, ColonialCoinsUK said:

I would go for a change in colour due to thickness (concentration) and/or age due to oxidation/polymerisation/exposure to light/reaction with the paper which usually results in pigments going darker with time - my chemistry background means I now want to figure this out

I agree, now.  I feel my initial theory/s seem to have missed the target a bit and that a color change is a far more likely explanation for the "Black" prefix and seral numbers. I am also wondering, now that I'm looking at this again today, if the press wasn't fully "inked up" for the lower serial number note and where the new, presumably purple, ink didn't cover the type entirely that some red, still present, transferred to the note. The "red" is just so red that I'm having trouble wrapping my head around the possibility that this is purple turned red when looking at how dark the rest of the ink is. But maybe. 

On 3/22/2022 at 6:19 PM, ColonialCoinsUK said:

Any idea what the inks were?

I can probably find that out, I read somewhere that the inks were purchased from Hostmann-Steinberg specialty inks when the printing works were in Kyiv. Since everything was moved to Kamianets-Podilsky, where these were presumably printed, I would assume that the same ink was used. I should have some time this weekend to dig into this further.

On 3/22/2022 at 6:42 PM, ColonialCoinsUK said:

Fill an empty slot in a collection or upgrade an existing one??? A key problem I have had for coins and now seem to have for banknotes. My coins and notes are usually old enough that top grades 66-70 has never been an issue with 58-63 more realistic however I have recently bought a few more 'modern' notes so I too now have this dilemma although the top grade available may still not go to 68 and then there my only be 1 or 2 examples in the population report.

Having initially started looking at British Colonial notes, to match my coins, there seem to be plenty available although the top grades attracted very high premiums. By contrast I was surprised that the numbers of graded notes for most Latin American countries was surprising low with the exception of Mexico and Colombia. Most countries have less than 3000 in total and with many types having no graded examples at all. Completion of any set looks like I may have to work out how to submit notes to PMG.

The main reason a modern, world, registry set in grades 68+ is a realistic goal for some sets is due to a lack of graded banknote collectors (or collectors in general) in most of those areas and larger sellers having these notes graded in bulk then selling at reasonable prices. Notes graded 68+ that I've recently picked up are in the $25-$60 dollar range. 

3000 notes graded for a Country is not too shabby, that would put them in the top 100 (out of 246). While that number is indeed small in relation to the number of notes, varieties and replacements most countries have issued, it is a respectable number over all. 

On 3/22/2022 at 6:42 PM, ColonialCoinsUK said:

We are all mad

So true! 

On 3/22/2022 at 11:14 AM, Revenant said:

I'm not paying $60 to upgrade a 67 to a 68.

But would a 67 to 69 upgrade in the same price range interest you? A 68 is good enough for most and is an arbitrary goal of mine when building modern sets. I've a couple 69's which I picked up in that price range, but they weren't upgrades.

On 3/22/2022 at 11:14 AM, Revenant said:

and something has come up that may shift my focus back to the 10G set.

   Interesting!  I like. 

It's an emoji day for me. 

+22 = 2,803

20 Hryven +3

100 Hryven +3

200 Hryven +5

500 Hryven +3

1000 Hryven +3

100 Karbovantsiv +1

1,000,000 Karbovantsiv +1

1 Karbowanez +1

200 Karbowanez +1

500 Karbowanez +1

Here are some closeups of the individual numbers, that I couldn't fit in the OP. I'm really wondering if this was purple ink that turned black/brown, over the red. I'm leaning that way. And maybe the the thinner areas of 'purple' ink turned more of a red color as opposed to the thicker areas that turned/stayed darker? How difficult would it be to run the sheets through for a second overprint and get the alignment right? Now I'm second guessing myself. Were the prefix and serial numbers applied one time using purple ink that turned color, different shades depending on the amount applied to the note, and was just poorly inked on some notes? 

Quote

slightly closer to being acceptable to Mike's lofty standards.

68 or bust for moderns.  I've been concentrating on a new set lately, , and I've been holding strong on the 68 minimum I've set. Meaning, I only buy the note if I see one graded 68. No upgrading for this set.  We'll see how well I hold up when pickings get slim, I'll probably break.   

Quote

The same seller with the above has a VEN104a in 67EPQ now, finally... If I'd realized this last night I might have grabbed this for combined shipping... as it is, now, I'm just going to sigh, roll my eyes, and be a bit annoyed. 

Meh, it wasn't a 68 anyway.  

Quote

I am still waiting to see if pre-graded Digital Bolivars will start showing up on eBay. If I can get them pre-graded in good grades for good prices I'll probably expand the set to include those and update the name from just "Strength and Sovereignty," but I don't really want to go through the hassle of grading these myself. I think the uniformity and sameness of these is hurting collector interest though and that might hurt dealer interest. I'm noticing that P-110 through P-113 don't seem to have done well, but P-114 did because it has a new back and, of course, it is the 1 Mil.

You can only have so many notes with essentially the same design, I would have thought that the added zero's would have kept people interested but.. I've been noticing about a six month lag lately from when a note is released and NH has some graded examples available. It's got to be close to that timeline for the DB.

+5 = 2,781

20 Hryven +4

100 Karbowanez +1

Quote

As a result I could not resist this half-quetzal note from Guatemala depicting the Temple of the Jaguar at Tikal on the back and Tecun Uman, one of the last rulers of the Maya, on the front. Does anyone know if the Maya glyph means something specific or is it just used as an example? Languages are not my strong point, google translate? 

Not sure about the glyph but I tend to think that it is a stylized depiction of the man himself, probably not an actual Mayan glyph. One of my favorite video docs is "Breaking the Maya code", it's a couple of hours long but worth viewing if you're into to such things. I've probably watched it a dozen times, usually just playing in the background as I'm working or researching banknotes.

You're stacking up some nice notes.  This note got me searching and I really enjoyed reading about Tecun Uman, and the legend of the quetzal. Never would have known if not for this note. 

+6 = 2,276 Two corrections this week.

100 Hryven -3

500 Hryven +1

1 Hryvnia +1

1,000 Karbovantsiv +2

500,000 Karbovantsiv +1

1,000,000 Karbovantsiv +1

200,000 Karbovantsiv +1

30 Shahiv -1

The Shahiv correction is a little weird, in that it is so far removed from the last increase which happened back in December. I guess we'll see what next week brings.

+12= 2,770

100 Hryven +2

500 Hryven +6

10 Karbowanez +1

200 Karbowanez +1

500 Karbowanez +2

On 2/26/2022 at 4:51 AM, ColonialCoinsUK said:

Female figures also seem to be used to represent cities and/or states - this is certainly the case in Europe. It doesn't appear to be the common representations of liberty, justice, victory etc as the items usually associated with these do not seem to be there and what is covers a range of things.

I would think it is a representation of the city/state as well, and how well to do it is. That this was issued prior to the revolution makes sense to me as well, the allegory is seated hands resting on the pillars of the chair (not holding the sword, maybe the two pillars represent twins which would give credence to this being Pax), wearing a laurel wreath and a 'cornucopia' laid out before her. It's an interesting depiction, it's like, yeah, we know what we have, we're bad arse better not mess us. It'll be interesting to see if you find anything from ABNC about this, or what they we're trying to depict/represent. 

I crack myself up sometimes, my interpretations of vignettes can be out there sometimes. 

Your comment about the allegory representing the city is interesting, any reason you think city as opposed to say, Liberty, Demeter, etc.? The pillared chair is interesting, does that tie into the current city coat of arms or city seal? Sorry if I'm asking too many questions, it's what I do, and I love banknotes.  

Nice pick up! 

Another specimen, was this due to price and availability again or are you just digging the specimens. I do.  

+28 = 2,758

5 Hryven + 2

10 Hryven +1

20 Hryven +2

100 Hryven +1

200 Hryven +2

500 Hryven +10

1000 Hryven +5

2 Hryvni +1

1 Hryvnia +1

1000 Karbovantsiv +1

10000 Karbovantsiv +1

2 Karbowanez +1

The 2 Karbowanez pop keeps slowly increasing, with 3 having been graded in the last month or so. Heritage Auctions will be auctioning one in the coming weeks, I have a feeling that this is the note that will be in that auction.

+8 = 2,730

5 Hryven +1

500 Hryven +1

10 Karbovantsiv +1

100 Karbovantsiv +1

250 Karbovantsiv +2

500 Karbovantsiv +1

1000 Karbovantsiv +1

Ah, this is interesting. A rare weekend update to the population report.

+88 = 2,722  

50 Hryven + 52

1000 Hryven + 32

50 Karbovantsiv + 1

100 Karbovantsiv + 1

The large increases in the 1,000 and 50 Hryven populations makes perfect sense, they added the 2019 issued notes to the Pop report, finally, which had been missing.  The other +1's were notes graded last week, I'm assuming. 

On 2/13/2022 at 11:02 AM, ColonialCoinsUK said:

Unfortunately such errors/omissions in the main reference that people use means that PMG have a few incorrect designations on their labels for some of the notes I have.

Hmm, yes I forgot about PMG's dependency on the SCWPM, etc.. I feel that PMG has gotten better over the years and has leaned more heavily on specialized catalogs for some countries, even putting that catalogs reference numbers on the label with the corresponding Pick number at times. Also, Krause is pretty famous for removing genuine varieties and consolidating Pick numbers.  It seems that PMG works closely with whatever remains of Krause and it maybe possible to work with PMG and see if they can get new Pick #'s assigned using the notes themselves and the documentation used in other references.  This is a path I've been considering and will try once I decide to submit some notes to PMG.

On 2/13/2022 at 11:02 AM, ColonialCoinsUK said:

It also looks like there are many countries without a specialist reference book either - great opportunity for a collector who may already have a lot of the info.

Most likely true but I've found many collecting references for Ukrainian banknotes, I just bought two more online from Poland, and I'm actually a little surprised by how many I now own. It's almost a collection in it's own right.  I think it more likely that there is a need for a specialized reference book, for most countries, that combines all the information from the existing catalogs. As you said the references don't all agree from time to time and they don't all have the same information in them.

On 2/13/2022 at 3:21 AM, ColonialCoinsUK said:

So far my only note with a train as a key element - from Scottishmoney on CoinTalk :-

'It is an "American 4-4-0" a very commonly used locomotive up until the 1880s in the USA and later in Mexico and incredibly some are still used for yard shunting in Cuba. As traffic increased after the Civil War larger and more powerful locomotives were needed with more tractive effort meaning larger wheel "bogey" arrangements to pull larger trains. Mexican railways largely could get by using the 4-4-0 wheel arrangement unless it was pulled over mountains etc like the Topolobampo Cubre Canyon railroad that needed more tractive pull'

Yep, saw that response over there.  Very interesting stuff, I like.

On 2/13/2022 at 3:21 AM, ColonialCoinsUK said:

At the moment die varieties on coins looks like a much easier undertaking than differences in medals and banknotes  - the more I find out about each piece the more gaps appear in the references Given the situation with Krause is there anyway to update the Specialised Issues, SCWPM etc as it appears to be full of errors??

Krause was always just a general reference and full of errors, and that's not a knock on them as I'm surprised that all encompassing catalogs such as Krause were as accurate as they were. For specific series you're better off going with specialized catalogs and doing your own research, as you know. 

It's my understanding that all the Krause catalogs are now "maintained" on the Numismaster website, https://numismaster.com/pages/-10012227/paper-money. From the website, 'This is the same respected research that previously filled the pages of the Standard Catalog of World Paper Money book series, along with Standard Guide to United States Paper Money.', all the images on the Numismater website seems to be directly form the catalogs as well as the pricing information. I have not tried contacting them but, if their Ukrainian section is any indication, they have done almost ZERO updating since Krause went tits up. I tried a one month membership there, $10 if I remember correctly, and it was a complete waste of $10. I'm being a bit harsh because how difficult can it be to update the website, , it's frustrating that these catalogs are basically being flushed down the toilet. That being said new Pick numbers are still being assigned and those have to be coming from somewhere. 

If I was going to throw away $10, I'd give the Banknote Book a try, https://www.greysheet.com/publications/the-banknote-book-world-paper-money , and/or join the IBNS How to join the IBNS . I just singed up, today.  I'll let you know how it is. 

That's very interesting, I never knew that about the otters/dogs, and I have to say that I love the vignette in the feature photo. 

Your comment on specimens being the only high grade examples available makes perfect sense, and for this note is undoubtedly true, but just the opposite can be true with many specimen notes. Circulating notes were often tucked away and either saved or forgotten only to resurface decades latter in uncirculated condition, and specimens were often disposed of/treated harshly because they were nonredeemable or were saved and glued into scrapbooks and the like.  I rarely see any Ukrainian specimens from the same period and if they do surface the condition is typically less than stellar. Specimen notes are some of my favorites.