Fenntucky Mike

The Smithsonian has made available, for free, the new book America's Paper Money. It looks like it mainly covers the designs/imagery of U.S. notes, with the main focus being obsoletes but it looks to touch on Continental Currency, NBN's and the Educational SC's. Did I mention it is free to download HERE.

On 3/6/2024 at 10:35 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Is scanning better for images/photos than a hi-res photo with a camera or smartphone ?

Scanning is better, more convenient, for most people and yields excellent results overall, it's cheaper and most people either have a scanner in their home or have access to one through work or friend, etc.. 

I will however say that if I was trying to judge the condition of a note I would much prefer an image be taken with a camera and it does not need to be high quality necessarily. Scanning produces a flatter looking image and the bright lighting can hide flaws, an image taken with a camera gives you a better idea of how a note lays, waviness, soiling, etc., because your not flattening the note while capturing an image of it and you don't have the harsh light, typically, that can washout flaws. I don't think I've ever bought a note based off of a scanned image. 

On 3/5/2024 at 10:45 PM, VE Coins said:

Also I am realizing that I should probably get a nice scanner so that I can have good images of my notes.

A good scanner does wonders for your note images. I also changed to using a black background when scanning my notes, it helps define the edges of the note better, especially notes with white or light colored edges. I discovered that a little late and probably have a few hundred notes that I'm in the process of rescanning. 

The scanner I use has 600dpi resolution.

On 3/5/2024 at 2:53 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

I like the artwork on that note, Mike.

I like it to, one of my favorite notes.

On 3/5/2024 at 2:53 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

What country and who is the lady ?

The note is from Ukraine and the portrait is of Lesya Ukrainka.

Here is a little write up, Journal Entry, I did on her and the use of her likeness on Ukrainian currency from a few years back.

On 3/5/2024 at 2:55 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

World War II currency or military coupon from Ukraine ?

I have a couple of MPCs (USA).

German issued currency, designed and distributed for use in Ukraine while under occupation by German forces. 

Binary-Radar-Rotator

Serial # 4. The first two digits are the prefix or print run number most don't consider them as part of the serial number but PMG does.  

On 3/4/2024 at 6:58 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

It's funny/weird seeing notes for countries that no longer exist -- Czechoslovakia and Yugoslavia -- that I grew up with reading about in the 1970's. 

"Ukraine/German Occupation" -- nothing changes, huh ?  Just cross out GERMAN with RUSSIAN.

Russia and Germany have been trying to push, conquer, neighboring countries/people around for hundreds of years, the only difference is that Germany stopped after WWII. The Russian Empire had taken over the territory of Ukraine long before WWI but when the Russian Revolution began in 1917 Ukraine declared independence and the Central Powers (Germany) helped kick the Russians out of Kyiv for a short time but once the armistice was signed, and the Communists took control of the Russian government,  they moved back into Ukraine and took it over again. Once WWII broke out Germany took control of Ukraine again in 1941 and were looked at as liberators by some, having kicked the Russians out a second time, but by 1944 the Russians had moved back in and stayed in control until 1991.

Many consider Yugoslavia and Czechoslovakia notes to have some of the best designs ever drafted on paper money. 

On 3/4/2024 at 11:41 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Wow, that much ?   Not familiar with error notes.

So the bill has extra paper clinging to that corner, am I correct ?  How the heck does that happen ? 

The subject sheet was folded during printing, looks like it was folded from the start of printing and was feed through the presses three times and still escaped the BEP, pretty unusual for that to happen. It looks legit to me but it would be worth it to have PMG certify it as an error. I saw similar error notes selling for around $400 on HA, the note is in lightly circulated condition but I wouldn't be shocked if it sold for closer to $500 based on what I saw.

On 3/4/2024 at 1:48 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

I'll bet all "5's" would probably cost 5-10x as much, even for a modern.

Mmm, , maybe more. I'd have to take a look a some auction records but $1,000+ wouldn't surprise me for a modern U.S. solid number note in similar condition. 

On 3/4/2024 at 1:48 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

For an older bill....SC or GC (if it exists)...probably closer to $1,000 or so.

I think you're underselling again, I'd bet a SC or GC solid S# note would go much higher. 

On 3/4/2024 at 1:48 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

I wonder if BEP employees or F&F get the super-low SN bills ?  You think they are spoken for....or they go out like all the rest ?  I think there are probably employment prohibitions about getting special bills like that which are known to be worth big $$$.

I would think that who ever is distributing the bundles of straps for the FRBs is cashing in on the low serial numbers and fancy numbers, bank tellers will cherry pick notes too. It's all about who you know.

On 3/4/2024 at 12:52 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

When I got on a buying kick for bills/currency years ago, I noticed some "close calls" with bills -- modern and old -- where a Serial Number was off by 1 (or 2) digits from being super-special.

The price for perfection was so high that I had to drop out, but I picked up a few of those "near misses" for prices (I think) somewhere between $30-$50.  Not sure what they go for now, maybe somebody knows.  Heritage used to auction them pretty frequently, at least monthly (Weekly Currency Auction, I think I was a regular for a few months).

Anyway, here's one:

That number definitely catches your eye when you first see it, it's a fun note. I don't personally collect near miss serial numbers but I'm sure some one would pay good money for a note with a serial number like that. I'd bet you could get triple of what you paid for it.

On 3/4/2024 at 11:52 AM, TheGrailCollector said:

I just read all of your guys replies and I agree with mike! a lot of people (especially) on eBay are just trying to sell you hot garbage. i can agree with you that there are such things as combinations. But I also think there should be a limit or gap between what passes as a TRUE fancy and what doesn't! This only hurts the new collectors/ beginners. I wish sites that are open to sell Banknotes let alone fancy notes, had someone or something regulating what can be posted and what cant. All these (what do we call them) fake Fancys. are making it to complicated (I personally think it is draining the fun out of it). I made a personal booklet with everything I think Qualifies as an actual Fancy note. I did excessive research to make sure I didn't miss anything. i suggest u guys make a sheet. both for fun notes you can say and as well for notes with actual value.

Lots of people collect notes with numbers that have special meaning to them, birthday, anniversary, jersey number, etc.. None are fancy typically but are special to those who collect them.

Asia goes gaga over luck numbers, 2, 6, 8, & 9 are the good ones I think and 4 is bad (death). No one is touching a solid 4 note over there unless they are saving one to give to an enemy or mother-in-law. 

I'd be tough to regulate what is and isn't an actual fancy number on sites like ebay, there is just so many, Everyone's best bet to avoid getting ripped off is to learn by attending a few shows, visiting their local coin shop, or coming to reputable sites like PMG and a few others. 

On 3/3/2024 at 12:36 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Mike, do you go to any currency-themed/heavy shows ?  What about the big national shows, like FUN ?

I'll get out to regional shows once in awhile as long as they are located in the upper mid-west, Detroit, Chicago, Pittsburg, Nashville, etc., those cities are not a far drive for me, 8hrs or less, and I can leave early morning catch the show in the afternoon, spend the night head back to the show in the morning and leave late morning early afternoon. I'll head over to Detroit once or twice a year and to Grand Rapids, MI and Kalamazoo, MI three or four times a year for local shows. I've never attended FUN but hope to go one day, I thought I was going to be able to go in 2023 as I was scheduled to be in Orlando for work around the time FUN was scheduled but we finished up early and left just before the show started. 

On 3/3/2024 at 11:53 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

As I recall, the price went much higher than for regular Radar's or Repeater's.

Super fancy notes do go for a premium over fancy notes, a lot less to go around. 

On 3/3/2024 at 10:45 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

It would seem to me that with fewer currency/bill collectors than coin collectors.....and with print runs of bills often in the tens of millions, sometimes BILLIONS....that you have different supply-demand dynamics at work here for many bill types.   Much different than with coin strikings of hundreds of thousands, millions tops, and survival rates much lower than the struck totals.

Probably the main difference between coin and currency collecting to me is that currency is more cut and dry as far as what a fancy number is, what an error is, etc.. 

Coins are struck in the billions all the time, probably the main difference is the number of individual dies required, how those dies are made, and the minting process in general. The printing process is much more repeatable and more easily monitored. There are short runs printed from time to time but that seems to happen less and less as time goes on, from what I've read once the BEP changes over all the printing presses to the new style star notes will be a thing of the past. I also think that currency is saved by individuals more frequently, why would you save 1k cents when you can just save a $100 bill, and is more easily saved without damaging it or it deteriorating from oxidization or tarnish. This increases the numbers of survivors in good condition. 

On 3/3/2024 at 2:18 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

I had forgotten that I had attended (by accident) the Society of Paper Money Collectors' (SPMC) address when I attended FUN 2020.  Right after -- and a bit before -- I actually was more active with buying bills/currency than with coins.

Anyway, they have some great resources available with older articles of journal quality:

https://content.spmc.org/wiki/SPMC_Paper_Money_Articles_Index

I spent most of my time here in the U.S. Small Size articles:

https://content.spmc.org/wiki/SPMC_Paper_Money_Articles_Index_(Category:_Small_Size_Type)

Unless you join, the most recent articles (within 5 years) are off-limits but there are some great older articles and the ones from 2019 on are being turned on.  You can also just join.

The SPMC is a great site, whoever goes and checks it out should get on their email list, they put out an email once a week with links to articles and news one banknotes, including lists of upcoming shows throughout the U.S.

On 3/3/2024 at 1:47 AM, Lance A D said:

I never did receive a definitive answer to the "True RADAR" definition, so I poked around on the 'Web' and found some good stuff.  Do you have a minute?

We all agree on the definition of a RADAR note. The definition of a Super RADAR is in dispute. “An example of a super radar is ‘81111118.’ The rules of math and probability say that a super radar will be found on only one note out of a random 1,111,111.”-pcgs.com.  I also found, “A ‘Super’ radar refers to notes where the middle six digits are all the same and the first and last digit are the same.” -collectors.com.  Heritage Auctions agrees with these definitions of a Super RADAR.

I also found, “There are ladder radars, A12344321A. There are repeater radars, A22444422A.”-oldcurrencyvalues.com.  The Repeater definition is the apparent PMG’s Super RADAR definition.

Done, right?  Nope.  I found, "It is my understanding that a RADAR note is where the 8 numbers making up the serial number is the same when read forwards and backwards. A PERFECT RADAR has the same LETTER at the beginning and end of a RADAR note."-papermoneyforum.com.  So maybe there is no True RADAR, but there is a Perfect RADAR.  Will this ever end?

So that this wasn't a total waste of your time, this website was very interesting.  Check out

http://www.coolserialnumbers.com/HowRareAreFancySerialNumbers.pdf

A radar serial number is one that reads the same forwards and backwards, period. That's it. To my knowledge a true, perfect, super, whatever you want to call it, has the same prefix and suffix/block letters for U.S. notes. Everything else is either a gimmick or just wrong. 

Just to clarify a repeater is a serial number that repeats in full, in order, and there must be at least two repeating numbers and the numbers must repeat at least twice. 

Traditional fancy serial numbers are well established, defined, and encompass a low number of notes. It seems that there are a lot of individuals making up fancy numbers, calling serial numbers consisting of only two digits that are not 0 and 1 binary is wrong, trinary notes are not considered fancy, calling notes with serial numbers under 1000 fancy is also wrong. People are trying to give numbers cutesy names and trying to make them something they are not, maybe it's a money grab, maybe ignorance, I don't know, but all this misrepresentation is causing confusion. Whether or not some of these new "fancy" numbers stick is yet to be seen. 

On 3/2/2024 at 12:25 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

I have the Standard Guide to Small Size US Paper Money book (9th Ed) and the Standard Catalog of U.S. Paper Money (27th Ed.).  Both are pretty much inventories of printed bills with (outdated ?) pricing.

Does anybody have any recommendation on OTHER books that might be more up-to-date and/or have little stories on select bills ?  For instance, the Standard Guide has a couple of 1/2 page interesting bits on the Series 1933A Blue Seal Silver Certificates and a few pages earlier on the 1964 removal of the prohibition on holding Gold Certificates.  I really like books that give you stories about some or all of the bills (can't do all of them, I get that).  For instance, Bowers includes select stories (esp. on shipwrecks) in some of his Whitman Red Books.

For instance, I'd love to know who used, bought, or was involved with some of the Large Denomination bills like the $5,000 and $10,000 bill...maybe early auctions of them ?....the stories about whether to print them and/or how many (they had to realize that no more than few dozen people could use bills that big)...etc.

Anyway, I find stuff like that very fascinating and it makes a book that is otherwise pretty much listings of bill types more interesting...breaks up the drudgery of it being just a glorified price guide.

Anybody else share this interest in currency books ? 

It be nice if I could find a book as you describe for currency I collect, and it be in English.!. 

I think Q.D.Bowers wrote several books about U.S. currency that might be right up your alley, 100 Greatest American Currency Notes and the Whitman Encyclopedia of U.S. Paper Money might be ones to look into. I know that QDB wrote specialized books on Continental Currency and Obsolete Banknotes, I've been thinking about picking up his Obsolete Banknotes book but haven't pulled the trigger yet. I have not read any of these but they look like they might be a good fit for you. 

These are not in your wheelhouse necessarily, nor mine, but I will be picking up the Forging Secrets: Faces and Facts Inside the Nazi Operation Bernhard Scheme book soon (it's about the Nazi counterfeiting ring where they forged mainly English banknotes if I remember correctly), and good book on either the making of banknotes or one specifically focusing on the designing and engraving of a note. One more, I'll probably pick up one or more of the histories of De La Rue.

On 3/1/2024 at 8:49 PM, Hachiko said:

These notes where stamped in Tokyo bay on navy ships with post offices and as far as I know not may of them are around 

I saw a few with the Tokyo Bay postage cancelation stamp, I'm not sure how rare they are but a quick search yields a few examples, enough where you should be able to roughly estimate a price and get a feel for how readily available they are.

Here is one that sold on HA in 2017, it's a $1 Hawaii note.

On 3/1/2024 at 6:09 PM, Lance A D said:

Yes it is.  That's I got the image.  I pulled it out of a bundle some time back.  I think it should be labeled a True Super Radar Note, but I don't think PMG will do it.  Too bad for me. :-(

Nice note!

It seems that PMG's definition of a Super Radar does reference that the prefix and suffix, block numbers, are part of or add to the serial number making if fancy, or fancier (super). It seems that a Super radar is the same as a True radar in PMG's world.

Super Pedigrees

This is when the serial number prefix makes the complete serial something different – something super. Any of the above pedigrees can qualify for the ‘super’ addition excluding Million Serial Number. The only requirement is that the prefix adds to the original serial number. There are two different scenarios where super fancy pedigrees come into play:

1. The serial number is already fancy and the prefix adds to the pedigree making it super.
2. The serial number isn’t fancy at all until the prefix is added – most commonly seen with radar serial numbers.

Another exception is when the serial number can qualify for more than one special pedigree. Such as in the case where the serial number is A1A0000001: PMG will only notate serial number 1 for free. Yes, this is also a Super Binary-Radar-Rotator as well. The customer would need to request the super pedigree on the submission form for a $5 charge in order to have both pedigrees. Below are two different types of super fancy serial numbers.

Try emailing PMG or asking this question in the ASK PMG section of the forum.

On 3/1/2024 at 4:41 PM, Lance A D said:

We need to correct one statement made that PMG will not "differentiate between radar notes and super radar notes."  Please observe a PMG $1 FRN labeled as a Super Radar. [I had to crop and re-crop the image to get it small enough for the forum.]

Is that your note?

On 3/1/2024 at 4:32 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Anyway, are all SC's in AU (1930's, 1950's, 1960's), so all worth pretty much face unless high-MS ?  What about with a star (got a few but not many) ?  A few also might have a blue seal.

There are some rare one's GF.

Looks like for series 1928 notes Fr #'s 1603*, 1604* & 1605* are the one's to keep your eye out for and it seems that most from that series pull a modest premium. For 1934 & '35 SC's Fr # 1606*, 1606a, 1607m*, 1609, 1609*, 1610, & 1610* pull decent to big premiums in circulated condition. Doesn't look like there are any winners in the series 1957 SC group. 

On 3/1/2024 at 4:32 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

I probably have about 100 or so...probably looking at $150 tops if I sold them all to a dealer I guess.  

What I need is a master plan like that of my namesake to make my SC's more valuable by destroying everybody elses !!! .  Where can I get my own OddJob ? 

Depends on what you have, I'd pick up a copy of Paper Money of the United states by Arthur and Ira Friedberg if you can, otherwise try to look up the Fr. #'s I gave you on HA or SB to see if you have any matches or post a few here and I'll look them up. 

On 3/1/2024 at 4:41 PM, Lance A D said:

We need to correct one statement made that PMG will not "differentiate between radar notes and super radar notes."  Please observe a PMG $1 FRN labeled as a Super Radar. [I had to crop and re-crop the image to get it small enough for the forum.]

I stand corrected. Nice sleuthing. 

On 3/1/2024 at 11:56 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

What I find is that not only are the grades pretty accurate for currency (less debate than with coins)....but that the big thing that keeps bills Mint State but drops the number (and the "eye appeal") is uneven borders.  Virtually all the low-60's bills I see have uneven borders, NOT one minor fold/crease that is tough to see.

You'd be surprised by the bickering of assigned grades and crack outs coming back with 5 point swings, it happens with notes but I agree to a lesser extent than with coins, probably because there are fewer note collectors, or at least fewer note collectors who send pieces to TPG's. I'm not as tough on borders, I'll take a decently centered note in better condition than a perfectly centered note in lesser condition, but that's me.  

On 3/1/2024 at 11:56 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Just like AU-58 coins can be nicer than low MS-60's, a bill in the 40's or 50's can be nicer-looking than a PMG low-60's unless you are angling light to see the fols which the MS bill doesn't have and the AU and lower bills do.

Plenty of AU notes dripping with ink, sharp corners, good margins, and bright paper that would put a MS to shame if it was a beauty contest.