True Radar Note 1 1

[Lance A D]

I know what a radar note is. I've seen Super Radar notes with the 3rd through 6th numbers are the same. Now I've seen a True Radar note where the pre-alpha and post-alpha character is also identical as in E 12344321 E. Is the True Radar note designation recognized? Will PMG label a note as such? Appreciate your thoughts.

[Fenntucky Mike]

On 2/29/2024 at 5:26 AM, Lance A D said:

I know what a radar note is. I've seen Super Radar notes with the 3rd through 6th numbers are the same. Now I've seen a True Radar note where the pre-alpha and post-alpha character is also identical as in E 12344321 E. Is the True Radar note designation recognized? Will PMG label a note as such? Appreciate your thoughts.

PMG will label a radar note with matching block letters as a "radar" not a "true radar". They don't differentiate between radar notes and super radar notes either, nor should they in my opinion. 

[GoldFinger1969]

I have this radar note.  Bought it a few years ago when I was on a "currency kick" ....not sure it's worth much, I think I only paid like $50 or something like that.

Edited February 29 by GoldFinger1969

[Fenntucky Mike]

On 2/29/2024 at 3:24 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

I have this radar note.  Bought it a few years ago when I was on a "currency kick" ....not sure it's worth much, I think I only paid like $50 or something like that.

Nice note, I've only purchased a graded fancy number note twice if I remember correctly but I have gobs of raw fancy number notes. Most fancy numbers can be bought at reasonable prices, except for solid and low numbers (10 and lower), 100-11 S#'s bring strong prices for U.S. notes and 10000000, 20000000, 30000000, etc., numbers as well. 

[GoldFinger1969]

On 2/29/2024 at 5:57 PM, Fenntucky Mike said:

Nice note, I've only purchased a graded fancy number note twice if I remember correctly but I have gobs of raw fancy number notes. Most fancy numbers can be bought at reasonable prices, except for solid and low numbers (10 and lower), 100-11 S#'s bring strong prices for U.S. notes and 10000000, 20000000, 30000000, etc., numbers as well. 

I used to check out some website that specialized in fancy serial numbers and I remember the prices jumped EXPONENTIALLY as you dropped to the single digits and then again as you fell below 5 and then 3 and to 1 or 2.

I always wondered for those pricey bills and/or Gold/Silver Certificates (esp. large denominations)....who got the super-low numbers ?  What happened to them ? 

Can't believe they were spent ! 

[Fenntucky Mike]

On 2/29/2024 at 8:17 PM, GoldFinger1969 said:

I always wondered for those pricey bills and/or Gold/Silver Certificates (esp. large denominations)....who got the super-low numbers ?  What happened to them ? 

Can't believe they were spent ! 

Actually quite a few were saved.  For old NBN, they were cut from sheets at the distributing bank and a lot of the S# 1's were saved by the bank or the bank president or teller. For modern notes it's kind of similar to coins where distributers for the Fed Banks will cherry pick the fancy numbers and start notes. It's probably easier in some ways to cherry pick notes than coins, at any rate, there are plenty of fancy # notes and star notes in high grades to go around.

[GoldFinger1969]

On 3/1/2024 at 6:13 AM, Fenntucky Mike said:

Actually quite a few were saved.  For old NBN, they were cut from sheets at the distributing bank and a lot of the S# 1's were saved by the bank or the bank president or teller. For modern notes it's kind of similar to coins where distributers for the Fed Banks will cherry pick the fancy numbers and start notes. It's probably easier in some ways to cherry pick notes than coins, at any rate, there are plenty of fancy # notes and star notes in high grades to go around.

Really ?  Saved ?  I haven't seen them for sale, but maybe they are treated like family heirlooms and come up for sale only every now and then.

So you -- and other currency experts -- believed that the super-low numbers for Light Green, Dark Green, Red, Gold Certificate, Silver Certificate, and Large Denomination regular bills -- are out there still...preserved ? 

[Fenntucky Mike]

On 3/1/2024 at 10:42 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

Really ?  Saved ?  I haven't seen them for sale, but maybe they are treated like family heirlooms and come up for sale only every now and then.

For National Bank Notes I see serial number 1's more often than you would expect and I don't really collect U.S. notes so I'm guessing the frequency at which they show up is even greater than I imagine. HA just had an auction a few months back where there were four serial number 1 NBN's in the auction, I only looked at the Michigan NBN's (4 of 17 were S# 1's) so I imagine there were several more in the auction for other regions. 

On 3/1/2024 at 10:42 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

So you -- and other currency experts -- believed that the super-low numbers for Light Green, Dark Green, Red, Gold Certificate, Silver Certificate, and Large Denomination regular bills -- are out there still...preserved ? 

Based on what I've seen, yes. Not all, but more than you would think.

Edited March 1 by Fenntucky Mike
Words

[GoldFinger1969]

Thanks Mike...interesting. 

In all fairness -- as evidenced by my posting frequency here  -- I blow hot-and-cold on following those auctions so it's probably true that if I followed them more closely I'd see the super-low SN's more often for special notes (I see them for regular run-of-the-mill bills).

 

Edited March 1 by GoldFinger1969

[Lance A D]

On 2/29/2024 at 4:30 AM, Fenntucky Mike said:

PMG will label a radar note with matching block letters as a "radar" not a "true radar". They don'tfferentiate between radar notes and super radar notes di either, nor should they in my opinion. 

We need to correct one statement made that PMG will not "differentiate between radar notes and super radar notes."  Please observe a PMG $1 FRN labeled as a Super Radar. [I had to crop and re-crop the image to get it small enough for the forum.]

[Fenntucky Mike]

On 3/1/2024 at 4:41 PM, Lance A D said:

We need to correct one statement made that PMG will not "differentiate between radar notes and super radar notes."  Please observe a PMG $1 FRN labeled as a Super Radar. [I had to crop and re-crop the image to get it small enough for the forum.]

I stand corrected. Nice sleuthing. 

[Fenntucky Mike]

On 3/1/2024 at 4:41 PM, Lance A D said:

We need to correct one statement made that PMG will not "differentiate between radar notes and super radar notes."  Please observe a PMG $1 FRN labeled as a Super Radar. [I had to crop and re-crop the image to get it small enough for the forum.]

Is that your note?

[Lance A D]

On 3/1/2024 at 1:56 PM, Fenntucky Mike said:

Is that your note?

Yes it is.  That's I got the image.  I pulled it out of a bundle some time back.  I think it should be labeled a True Super Radar Note, but I don't think PMG will do it.  Too bad for me. :-(

[Fenntucky Mike]

On 3/1/2024 at 6:09 PM, Lance A D said:

Yes it is.  That's I got the image.  I pulled it out of a bundle some time back.  I think it should be labeled a True Super Radar Note, but I don't think PMG will do it.  Too bad for me. :-(

Nice note!

It seems that PMG's definition of a Super Radar does reference that the prefix and suffix, block numbers, are part of or add to the serial number making if fancy, or fancier (super). It seems that a Super radar is the same as a True radar in PMG's world.

Super Pedigrees

This is when the serial number prefix makes the complete serial something different – something super. Any of the above pedigrees can qualify for the ‘super’ addition excluding Million Serial Number. The only requirement is that the prefix adds to the original serial number. There are two different scenarios where super fancy pedigrees come into play:

1. The serial number is already fancy and the prefix adds to the pedigree making it super.
2. The serial number isn’t fancy at all until the prefix is added – most commonly seen with radar serial numbers.

Another exception is when the serial number can qualify for more than one special pedigree. Such as in the case where the serial number is A1A0000001: PMG will only notate serial number 1 for free. Yes, this is also a Super Binary-Radar-Rotator as well. The customer would need to request the super pedigree on the submission form for a $5 charge in order to have both pedigrees. Below are two different types of super fancy serial numbers.

Try emailing PMG or asking this question in the ASK PMG section of the forum.

Edited March 2 by Fenntucky Mike
Words

[Lance A D]

On 2/29/2024 at 2:26 AM, Lance A D said:

I know what a radar note is. I've seen Super Radar notes with the 3rd through 6th numbers are the same. Now I've seen a True Radar note where the pre-alpha and post-alpha character is also identical as in E 12344321 E. Is the True Radar note designation recognized? Will PMG label a note as such?

I never did receive a definitive answer to the "True RADAR" definition, so I poked around on the 'Web' and found some good stuff.  Do you have a minute?

We all agree on the definition of a RADAR note. The definition of a Super RADAR is in dispute. “An example of a super radar is ‘81111118.’ The rules of math and probability say that a super radar will be found on only one note out of a random 1,111,111.”-pcgs.com.  I also found, “A ‘Super’ radar refers to notes where the middle six digits are all the same and the first and last digit are the same.” -collectors.com.  Heritage Auctions agrees with these definitions of a Super RADAR.

I also found, “There are ladder radars, A12344321A. There are repeater radars, A22444422A.”-oldcurrencyvalues.com.  The Repeater definition is the apparent PMG’s Super RADAR definition.

Done, right?  Nope.  I found, "It is my understanding that a RADAR note is where the 8 numbers making up the serial number is the same when read forwards and backwards. A PERFECT RADAR has the same LETTER at the beginning and end of a RADAR note."-papermoneyforum.com.  So maybe there is no True RADAR, but there is a Perfect RADAR.  Will this ever end?

So that this wasn't a total waste of your time, this website was very interesting.  Check out

http://www.coolserialnumbers.com/HowRareAreFancySerialNumbers.pdf

[Fenntucky Mike]

On 3/3/2024 at 1:47 AM, Lance A D said:

I never did receive a definitive answer to the "True RADAR" definition, so I poked around on the 'Web' and found some good stuff.  Do you have a minute?

We all agree on the definition of a RADAR note. The definition of a Super RADAR is in dispute. “An example of a super radar is ‘81111118.’ The rules of math and probability say that a super radar will be found on only one note out of a random 1,111,111.”-pcgs.com.  I also found, “A ‘Super’ radar refers to notes where the middle six digits are all the same and the first and last digit are the same.” -collectors.com.  Heritage Auctions agrees with these definitions of a Super RADAR.

I also found, “There are ladder radars, A12344321A. There are repeater radars, A22444422A.”-oldcurrencyvalues.com.  The Repeater definition is the apparent PMG’s Super RADAR definition.

Done, right?  Nope.  I found, "It is my understanding that a RADAR note is where the 8 numbers making up the serial number is the same when read forwards and backwards. A PERFECT RADAR has the same LETTER at the beginning and end of a RADAR note."-papermoneyforum.com.  So maybe there is no True RADAR, but there is a Perfect RADAR.  Will this ever end?

So that this wasn't a total waste of your time, this website was very interesting.  Check out

http://www.coolserialnumbers.com/HowRareAreFancySerialNumbers.pdf

A radar serial number is one that reads the same forwards and backwards, period. That's it. To my knowledge a true, perfect, super, whatever you want to call it, has the same prefix and suffix/block letters for U.S. notes. Everything else is either a gimmick or just wrong. 

Just to clarify a repeater is a serial number that repeats in full, in order, and there must be at least two repeating numbers and the numbers must repeat at least twice. 

Traditional fancy serial numbers are well established, defined, and encompass a low number of notes. It seems that there are a lot of individuals making up fancy numbers, calling serial numbers consisting of only two digits that are not 0 and 1 binary is wrong, trinary notes are not considered fancy, calling notes with serial numbers under 1000 fancy is also wrong. People are trying to give numbers cutesy names and trying to make them something they are not, maybe it's a money grab, maybe ignorance, I don't know, but all this misrepresentation is causing confusion. Whether or not some of these new "fancy" numbers stick is yet to be seen. 

Edited March 4 by Fenntucky Mike
Clarification

[GoldFinger1969]

I thought I had bought a Super Radar or Repeater or something like that but apparently not.....I think maybe I bid on a few....but got out-bid on them. 

As I recall, the price went much higher than for regular Radar's or Repeater's.

[Fenntucky Mike]

On 3/3/2024 at 11:53 AM, GoldFinger1969 said:

As I recall, the price went much higher than for regular Radar's or Repeater's.

Super fancy notes do go for a premium over fancy notes, a lot less to go around. 

[TheGrailCollector]

I just read all of your guys replies and I agree with mike! a lot of people (especially) on eBay are just trying to sell you hot garbage. i can agree with you that there are such things as combinations. But I also think there should be a limit or gap between what passes as a TRUE fancy and what doesn't! This only hurts the new collectors/ beginners. I wish sites that are open to sell Banknotes let alone fancy notes, had someone or something regulating what can be posted and what cant. All these (what do we call them) fake Fancys. are making it to complicated (I personally think it is draining the fun out of it). I made a personal booklet with everything I think Qualifies as an actual Fancy note. I did excessive research to make sure I didn't miss anything. i suggest u guys make a sheet. both for fun notes you can say and as well for notes with actual value.

[Fenntucky Mike]

On 3/4/2024 at 11:52 AM, TheGrailCollector said:

I just read all of your guys replies and I agree with mike! a lot of people (especially) on eBay are just trying to sell you hot garbage. i can agree with you that there are such things as combinations. But I also think there should be a limit or gap between what passes as a TRUE fancy and what doesn't! This only hurts the new collectors/ beginners. I wish sites that are open to sell Banknotes let alone fancy notes, had someone or something regulating what can be posted and what cant. All these (what do we call them) fake Fancys. are making it to complicated (I personally think it is draining the fun out of it). I made a personal booklet with everything I think Qualifies as an actual Fancy note. I did excessive research to make sure I didn't miss anything. i suggest u guys make a sheet. both for fun notes you can say and as well for notes with actual value.

Lots of people collect notes with numbers that have special meaning to them, birthday, anniversary, jersey number, etc.. None are fancy typically but are special to those who collect them.

Asia goes gaga over luck numbers, 2, 6, 8, & 9 are the good ones I think and 4 is bad (death). No one is touching a solid 4 note over there unless they are saving one to give to an enemy or mother-in-law. 

I'd be tough to regulate what is and isn't an actual fancy number on sites like ebay, there is just so many, Everyone's best bet to avoid getting ripped off is to learn by attending a few shows, visiting their local coin shop, or coming to reputable sites like PMG and a few others. 

[TheGrailCollector]

i learn something new everyday! i did not know about the number 4  Anyways thanks for the input.

[GoldFinger1969]

On 3/4/2024 at 11:52 AM, TheGrailCollector said:

I just read all of your guys replies and I agree with mike! a lot of people (especially) on eBay are just trying to sell you hot garbage. i can agree with you that there are such things as combinations. But I also think there should be a limit or gap between what passes as a TRUE fancy and what doesn't! This only hurts the new collectors/ beginners. I wish sites that are open to sell Banknotes let alone fancy notes, had someone or something regulating what can be posted and what cant. All these (what do we call them) fake Fancys. are making it to complicated (I personally think it is draining the fun out of it). I made a personal booklet with everything I think Qualifies as an actual Fancy note. I did excessive research to make sure I didn't miss anything. i suggest u guys make a sheet. both for fun notes you can say and as well for notes with actual value.

The good thing is that the specialization (marketing) of all these differentiated "fancy numbers" are limited by the laws of mathematics and the digits 0-9, right ?    I do see how the "super" annotation could come into play if you want the same letters buttressing the serial numbers on both sides. 

I see more specialization and more varieties with coins -- and the descriptions (PL, DMPL, etc.) and grades -- are more in dispute there than with currency/bill grading and "fancy" stuff.  We can disagree if a coin is PL on both sides but a bill either is or is not a radar or repeater or other fancy SN.

I see where you are coming from on currency/bills but at the same time, I knew what I was doing when I bought a bunch.  With coins (Saints and gold coins of various types/sizes) I make infrequent purchases because of the high costs.  With these bills -- even "fake" fancies -- I can buy something at an auction, actually win something, and I'm out about $60 (sometimes less ! ).  Like I said to Mike, I was active for a few months and bought maybe a dozen or so bills of different fancy types so nothing that will set me back lots of $$$.  Later on, I bought a few (for me) premium notes like my Hawaii Note and my $10 Gold Certificate.

To me, the fancy's are mostly harmless, inexpensive ways to buy high-graded moderns (the classics would cost too much $$$) if someone wants a few conversation pieces and/or doesn't have the $$$ for more prestigious bills.  You can buy a dozen of these "fake fancies" instead of a single ungraded $500 or $1,000 bill in circulated condition. 

It all depends on what you want.  But I don't think people will get burned on sub-$100 bills/currency which most of these costs.....OTOH, I saw a coinfomercial over the weekend with 5-ounce silvers going for $999 and Saint-Gaudens Winged Liberty commemoratives asking $5,500.  I only hope anybody who can afford to pay those prices can also afford to lose the premium paid. 

[Lance A D]

I'm the guy who originally asked about a True Radar.  We have now established that PMG does not label a True Radar, but it does recognize a Super Radar where the prefix and suffix alpha characters are identical.  One type of serial number we never got to was the Rotator.  There, the numbers read the same when the note is flipped horizontally.  Only 0, 1, 6, 8, and 9 work.  The notes are uncommonly found because they're harder to spot.  Please look at a nice Radar, Repeater, Rotator that I stumbled upon; you can see how something like this is easy to spot.

[Fenntucky Mike]

On 3/10/2024 at 3:59 AM, Lance A D said:

We have now established that PMG does not label a True Radar, but it does recognize a Super Radar where the prefix and suffix alpha characters are identical.

It's a little confusing but I believe PMG's definition of a Super Radar is a radar serial number with matching block letters, not that four or six of the middle digits are the same. In this sense PMG does recognize "True" radars as they are the same as super in their book. That's how I interpret it at any rate, might be worth asking PMG for clarification. 

Nice radar-repeater. 

[Lance A D]

PMG only labels a "True" radar as a Super radar.

The confusion arises from statement on the Web such as:

Super RADAR = “... all the interior digits are the same.  For example, 20000002 is a super radar.” - Jason DeWayne King “Fancy Serials: A Collector’s Guide to Special Serial Numbers” [April 28, 2018] 

See  www.pmgnotes.com/news/article/5901/Fancy-Serial-Numbers-On-Currency/