ColonialCoinsUK

Languages have never been my strong point but I can figure out some Spanish names and numbers - I couldn't even attempt anything with a different alphabet so Asian languages etc are completely out, Russian, German and Ukranian is impressive . My excuse is that my brother must have got all the required genes as he speaks multiple languages and even does some translation work on the side. So with my limited vocabulary it looks like I have 18 notes covering 15 blocks and there are only an extra 7 blocks that I am currently aware of - yes a whole SEVEN notes. Given an issue of 100,000, albeit with alot of circulation, I would hope that a few more examples survived and they are out there somewhere. The other denominations and series appear to have even less examples!! A sequence would be:- 00001-20000 ? 12001-14000 UGT 24001-26000 ? 36001-38000 UGT 48001-50000 UGT 60001-62000 ? 72001-74000 ? 84001-86000 UGT 96001-98000 ITE (vert)? I would guess/predict notes with numbers in the missing blocks also have UGT as the control letters. For comparison 58-60K, 70-72K, 82-84K and 94-96K are all MA-A so the earlier blocks 10-12K, 22-24K, 34-36K and 46-48K may also be MA-A or at least all be the same. Could the apparent blocks of 2000 notes correspond to how they were shipped from the printer? there are examples where this happened rather than just consecutive numbers making up a shipment - another security measure? or it could all be rubbish. How to crack the code? In the dos caritos 1 peso series some control letters are VILL-A, SCO-N, NCI-M, and FRA-L. So this would be FRA-NCI-SCO-VILL-A otherwise known as Pancho Villa - the only person I was familiar with before looking into the history of the period. In the 5 pesos dos caritos series some of the control letters seem to be the initials of the leading insurgents at the time F-V (the infamous Francisco Villa again), J-E-R (José E. Rodríguez) E-A-B (Eugenio Aguirre Benavides) etc, etc. So names, initials, places etc seem to be an option - is L-AR referring to Leon (Domingo) Arrieta the leading revolutionary and short-lived Governer of Durango and is MA-A his brother Mariano Arrieta?? I am so glad that things are now electronic with 'saved searches' so it is now a waiting game and maybe a few more gaps will be filled in over the next 30 years or so.

My thoughts exactly and there does seem to be plenty of information available for certain series e.g. the dos caritos issues, however I was also surprised at the many gaps in the data for a popular collecting area like Mexico - having said that the data on the fractional real coinage has only recently been improved with the excellent books by Brad Yonaka. There are even plenty of discoveries to be made in Napoleonic issues where you would think the records were detailed and available. There seems to be even less info for the rest of Latin America, which are the only ones I have looked at so far, but I expect it is the same for most of the world - Ukraine??. Although I expect individual collectors may have the data somewhere - like you I tend to (well try to ) record such information and this is now much easier with Ebay and auction records available online. I should say that Simon Prendergast, at the US Mexican Numismatic Association (usmex.org), has been great allowing such findings to update the central records. Back to the Durango 5 peso issue M1495, there are no graded examples (which probably doesn't help) with the best that I am aware of being two notes in VF with the rest falling into the 'tatty' category. I think the code letters were changed every 2000 notes with the overall sequence repeating every 12000 notes, for example:- UGT/ITE (vert)* OIY (vert)/L-AR (vert) LPS/EID ERO-/MIR/GON ERA-/GFA MA-A *Almost all relevant blocks that I am aware of largely have a single set of control letters, in a consistent position on the note, however it appears that some numbers (last ~20000?) were issued at different times and it gets a bit random at that point e.g. should the single example of ITE(vert) actually be in the next block which would then have all the vertical control letters together. I need to find more examples to confirm/fill in the gaps. As you suggest I think this group of notes was a collector trying to put different examples together as this range in a natural accumulation would be extremely unlikely. Several other group lots that I acquired were also made up of a range of series/control letters etc - I wish I had also got the last lot that was available! [some other Mexican issues change every 2000 and both horizontal and vertical control letters are known]

Although these notes are from another Mexican state - Durango - I am not counting them towards my State set as I do have a specimen note which will fill that slot. So why did I buy these well-circulated notes when 'quality' is a key element in any collection? A major goal in my coin collecting has always been the search for die varieties and it appears I have now suffered the same fate with banknotes. The seller's picture just highlighted a pile of tatty banknotes however the code letters were visible for a few of the notes, MA-A was known for the issue whereas UGT was not and I couldn't resist seeing what else might be lurking there. So having spent a few pleasant hours working out what I had the summary is:- Of the known control letters, MA-A, LPS, ERO-, GFA etc the first two were there however OIY (vertical), UGT, ERA-, MIR, EID, L-AR (vertical), GON and ITE (vertical) were new which can now be added to the list. Another aspect that banknotes usually have that coins don't is numbers! These pretty much covered the whole issue (proposed to be 100,000 notes) running from 3033 to 96229 extending the know range quite a bit. This set of notes also confirmed that the same code letters were used for different sets of numbers (in groups of 2000?) and as a result I think also suggests the pattern for how the codes changed. If anyone has any notes from Series E (or any of the others for that matter) it would be great to know what the numbers/codes are to see if they fit in with my proposed system or whether I have to go back to the drawing board!

Fill an empty slot in a collection or upgrade an existing one??? A key problem I have had for coins and now seem to have for banknotes. My coins and notes are usually old enough that top grades 66-70 has never been an issue with 58-63 more realistic however I have recently bought a few more 'modern' notes so I too now have this dilemma although the top grade available may still not go to 68 and then there my only be 1 or 2 examples in the population report. Having initially started looking at British Colonial notes, to match my coins, there seem to be plenty available although the top grades attracted very high premiums. By contrast I was surprised that the numbers of graded notes for most Latin American countries was surprising low with the exception of Mexico and Colombia. Most countries have less than 3000 in total and with many types having no graded examples at all. Completion of any set looks like I may have to work out how to submit notes to PMG. We are all mad

Fascinating details as some of the Mexican notes have red or black numbers! I would go for a change in colour due to thickness (concentration) and/or age due to oxidation/polymerisation/exposure to light/reaction with the paper which usually results in pigments going darker with time - my chemistry background means I now want to figure this out Any idea what the inks were?

'a stylized depiction of the man himself' - this makes much more sense. I have watched many documentaries on ancient cultures, and often end up doing so more than once, as I seem to pick up on different aspects each time. I would have been happy to have a career studying these and nearly did - still ended up solving problems and working out what is going on, just as a scientist instead. It would be great to have a collection of ancient coins but I really would find picking one area of focus an impossibility - and I have tried

Another thing drawing me to central/south America, and beyond Mexico, is a long-standing interest in the ancient cultures of the region - the Maya, the Inca, the Aztec and the Olmec's and so on. If I won the Lottery then my travel plans would be to visit these sites, unlike friends and colleagues who seem to prefer major cities and pristine beaches. As a result I could not resist this half-quetzal note from Guatemala depicting the Temple of the Jaguar at Tikal on the back and Tecun Uman, one of the last rulers of the Maya, on the front. Does anyone know if the Maya glyph means something specific or is it just used as an example? Languages are not my strong point, google translate? The currency is named after the Quetzal, the spectacular red and green bird seen flying across the face of the note whose long tail feathers were incorporated into the headdresses of the Aztec and Maya ruling class. As Tecun Uman's spirit guide, and a symbol of Liberty, it features on many notes and coins from post-colonial Guatemala. I suppose that means I have already drifted south along the coast and have also started my first 'modern' set.

Female figures also seem to be used to represent cities and/or states - this is certainly the case in Europe. It doesn't appear to be the common representations of liberty, justice, victory etc as the items usually associated with these do not seem to be there and what is covers a range of things. Well spotted, the coat of arms for Veracruz does have a pair of pillars on it so I am leaning towards the lady representing the city/state. This could all be completely wrong of course but adding banknotes to my collection has just highlighted how little I know about anything. Edit. My first thought was that it could be the roman goddess Pax - often seated holding an olive branch. Great - I now have to see if I can find whether the American Bank Note company call her anything?

Although I have a few specimen and remainder notes, and therefore nice examples of the artwork, it turns out they are often cheaper than the equivalent grade circulated note if you can even fine one. So far just the smaller, and thus common, denominations Having said that I am waiting for some notes that are at the completely other end of the quality spectrum but I am hoping they will be interesting for a different reason

Like coins I seem incapable of just accumulating random notes and need to 'organize' them into some form of set. The diversity of Mexican currency during this period means there is great potential for numerous sets, however one obvious set that I have been considering is one note, any note, from each of the 30 states. The dos caritas 10 pesos note from my first PMG Journal was issued in Chihuahua so that became State No1 - it appears I have quite a few notes from this large northern state which will no doubt start mulitple other groupings. The next note I mentioned was a 20 pesos note where the otters on the Tampico Coat of Arms seem to have morphed into dogs on the back of the note. This added Tamaulipas as State No2. State No3 is going to be Vercacruz, highlighted by this 5 Pesos note (S437s, M528s) issued by El Banco Mercantil de Veracruz from 1899 until 1910, another Specimen note. The 5 Pesos was the lowest, and most common denomination issued by the bank but like many of the original state banks this one didn't survive the revolution when Carranza as the new President cancelled all their charters in an attempt to centralise the banking system. This note shows a seated female figure (representing the city?) on the front with her back to the harbour surrounded by references to the local industries and commerce; mining tools, agricultural products and the train line. The back of the note depicts another view of the docks as Veracruz, like Tampico, is a major port and remains critical to the Mexican economy today although the fortress of St Juan de Ulua could do with some restoration. So at February 2022 the Mexican states acquired are:- No1: Chihuahua No2: Tamaulipas No3: Veracruz So 3/30 at the moment, only 27 to go, some are going to be difficult, due to both limited availability and/or that they are expensive but it is the challenge and it is striving for completion that keeps us young!

Thanks - I had a look at Numismaster - seems to have even less info than the original catalogue! Unfortunately such errors/omissions in the main reference that people use means that PMG have a few incorrect designations on their labels for some of the notes I have. Mexican Paper Money is much much better, with usmex.org even more complete, but then the three sources do not always agree on the basics such as known Series etc. I am trying/failing to resist finding new dates, series, control letters, known number ranges and so on but they seem to be all over the place. It also looks like there are many countries without a specialist reference book either - great opportunity for a collector who may already have a lot of the info.

So far my only note with a train as a key element - from Scottishmoney on CoinTalk :- 'It is an "American 4-4-0" a very commonly used locomotive up until the 1880s in the USA and later in Mexico and incredibly some are still used for yard shunting in Cuba. As traffic increased after the Civil War larger and more powerful locomotives were needed with more tractive effort meaning larger wheel "bogey" arrangements to pull larger trains. Mexican railways largely could get by using the 4-4-0 wheel arrangement unless it was pulled over mountains etc like the Topolobampo Cubre Canyon railroad that needed more tractive pull' At the moment die varieties on coins looks like a much easier undertaking than differences in medals and banknotes - the more I find out about each piece the more gaps appear in the references Given the situation with Krause is there anyway to update the Specialised Issues, SCWPM etc as it appears to be full of errors??

My first Mexican Banco note is a specimen* Tamaulipas 20 Pesos from 1902-1914 (S431s, M522s). As I have now discovered the state of Tamaulipas is on the east coast, bordering Texas and therefore facing the middle of the Gulf of Mexico. Tampico is located in the south east corner of the state and is not only a major port but the largest city, and also where the first branch of the bank was established by the Governor and a group of local business men and as such the back of all the notes in this series reflects the city Coat of Arms. Only it doesn't, well not quite! The boatman and the land are fine however the two animals in the foreground on the Coat of Arms are otters as Tampico apparently means 'place of the water dogs' in the Mayan derivative language called Huastec, not surprising given the ideal conditions for the species provided by the marshy coastline. However given the reference to 'water dogs' I guess the American Bank Note Company were not paying complete attention and engraved two 'dogs' instead of two otters. They may not be entirely to blame as I assume the Banco de Tamaulipas management also approved of the design although they may have thought the provided 'coat of arms' was enough description. My note is Series H which is the last series for this denomination and was only partly issued from 21st April 1914, due to yet another change of government, so I expect updating the design was not practical at this point as there was a war on! Anyone have any further insight? *Specimens and remainders seem to be almost the only way to get high grade examples of these earlier Mexican notes as the issued notes were widely circulated, were largely recalled and incinerated, and are therefore usually only found in low grades (Fair to Fine and very occasionally VF).

I'm not quite that mad, although others may disagree. There are so many other notes issued during the period I am after a range of designs, even one per state for the Bancos would be a challenge (I only have 5 states at the moment) with many of the notes issued during the revolution proving even more difficult. The collection will no doubt be random/shambles/eclectic and, for many issues, complete sets are nothing but a dream but at least there is no need to worry about certain numbers etc as there are so few examples available - the 'dos caritas' series and the Banco de Mexico later issues being almost the only exceptions! I have had copies of SCWPM and the Specialised Issues for years although Mexican World Paper Money was more recent, and in colour. As my coins do drift further south I ask myself are there equivalent references for the rest of central and south amercia!?

Well here I am over at the PMG Journals with my first banknote - a 'dos caritas' 10 pesos from the Mexico Revolution 1910-1920. As my main collection evolved into Napoleonic coins you may ask 'where the *>?^ did that come from?' As Napoleon conquered most of Europe my collection of French coins started to also encompass those issued in Italy, Westphalia, Holland and Spain as family members took charge of these territories. The impact of the ever changing European map was felt globally, most notably initiating the collapse of the Spanish Empire, and having started by collecting British small silver I found that I was picking up a few fractional reales from this period with most of the examples being from Spain itself, and Mexico. Due to a preference for 'real money' in the early 1800's there was a lack of 'paper money' so I jumped ahead about a hundred years or so to another turbulent period in Mexico's history - the early 1900's. Not only did I find the often classical designs of the earlier notes issued by the 'Bancos' attractive this was a period I really knew nothing about, the currency was incredibly diverse and rapidly changing across the whole region, and so it was a great opportunity for discovery and to learn something new. I realise that this is a common note and you could probably buy the whole denomination set immediately on Ebay but these would be lower grades and/or expensive - one thing collecting coins taught me is that quality (and rarity and preferably both) counts and this top grade note was not much above the grading cost. For anyone who also reads the NGC Journals you will no doubt be aware that one of my passions in coins is the search for die varieties and even for this note there seems to be at least 23 options (not including control letters etc*) with mine# probably the easiest to find in high grade, but you have to start somewhere! *Mexican Paper Money 2017 highlights 'the dos caritas series from Chihuahua, are collected by series, control letters and numbers which total in excess of a 1,000 notes'. This is NEVER going to happen. #N series with the red scalloped seal, control letters but no date on the back S535a/M924w PMG66EPQ

Reply seems to be whether they are still redeemable at the bank or not - so it looks like older contemporary counterfeits should be OK. No population report for these though!

Many thanks for the clarification - the ones I am thinking of are World notes, I don't think they are redeemable by the bank but I will have to check!

On a recent Journal entry by FenntuckyMike 'I've Been Everywhere, Man! (Part 1)' there was a Ukraine Contemporary Counterfeit that was graded. I just wondered what PMG's rules were on grading contemporary counterfeits? and what the requirements were to demonstrate this status? Many thanks

There may be a Journal Entry or two in the future

Mike, very interesting as someone who has an interest in die varieties for coins. I thought PMG didn't grade counterfeits - I assume this applies to modern counterfeits rather than contemporary ones? Their FAQs don't seem to differentiate but I may be looking in the wrong place!