Lance A D Posted June 15 Report Share Posted June 15 Somehow I managed to get myself embroiled in a little disagreement with PMG, this after many years of my being a loyal customer. It’s been a couple of weeks now because I wanted to calm down so I wouldn’t reply in an inappropriate or discourteous manner. I submitted a number of U.S. notes at the convention in Colorado Springs last March. When I finally received the notes back, two $1 FRNs were mislabeled. I contacted PMG and we exchanged a couple of phone calls and e-mails. We were unable to resolve their problem. I had submitted two $1 FRN Super Radar notes. The PMG personnel with whom I communicated told me that PMG does not label U.S. notes as “Super” [pedigree]. What was PMG trying to tell me? PMG doesn’t do it now? PMG never did it? PMG doesn’t do it any more? PMG changed its policy and didn’t inform customers of the change? Perhaps any U.S. notes labeled as Super were the result of a booboo by the graders plus the Quality Control specialist? Their answer was unclear. I felt abused and put upon (not to mention disrespected as a long-time customer). All I ask is that the notes be properly labeled. I’m not seeking an apology nor my money back. Are there others out there who have encountered this mislabeling problem? It occurred to me if enough customers have experienced this problem and were to complain to PMG, perhaps this could be clarified and resolved. Please see below two examples of notes that don’t exist. GoldFinger1969 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fenntucky Mike Posted June 15 Report Share Posted June 15 I don't have an answer for you but it could be any of the reasons you suggest, my guess would be that PMG no longer uses the term "Super Radar", or it's only available to certain large customers of PMG, or these slipped out the door and are considered "mechanical errors". The only mislabeling from PMG's perspective seems to be the notes with the "Super Radar" label, if they no longer or never did use the term "Super" then as far as they are concerned your notes are labeled correctly. I'm assuming that you've showed the two notes pictured to PMG? PMG & NGC don't recognize/label lots of things on notes and coins, or just flat out get it wrong, I guess I've become accustom to this and it doesn't bother me nearly as much as it once did as I know what I'm looking at and don't rely on the label as the be all and end all. On the bright side of things PMG has come round on several items that were wrong and corrected them in my collecting areas, or at least improved their labeling, so there is a chance that they will start labeling super radars in the future, my guess is if the demand is there. GoldFinger1969 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoldFinger1969 Posted June 15 Report Share Posted June 15 I thought I might have one but it turns out I don't. I must have SEEN one though I can't recall what note it might have been describing as it was years ago. Good Luck with this and keep us posted. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoldFinger1969 Posted June 15 Report Share Posted June 15 Lance, do you or someone else have a definititon of "Super" radars ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fenntucky Mike Posted June 15 Report Share Posted June 15 (edited) On 6/15/2024 at 11:40 AM, GoldFinger1969 said: Lance, do you or someone else have a definititon of "Super" radars ? I've seen this described in at least two different ways one being that a "Super" radar includes the block letters, meaning they have to match. So any radar number from block AA would be considered a super radar. The second way I've seen them described is that all of the interior digits need to be the same, like 50000005. Probably why PMG won't label notes as a Super radar now that I think about it, more than one definition. People are trying to make everything special so no nothing is due to confusion and duplication. Including the block letters is the definition I see used most often. What would you call serial number A50000005A? Super-duper-radar? People collect specialized things that really are of only modest interest to a majority of collectors, "Super" radars are one of these types of things. Super radars and double quads, to name a few, are quasi-fancy numbers that are not generally acknowledged by the collecting community as a whole. To take this a step further some people will try to include the FRB letter to match the block letters like the notes above, or include the FRB numbers to make a "Super" solid number, etc.. Not saying that some of these won't catch on, some already have, but there are so many of these quasi-fancy numbers that it is just enough already. I see double quad and super radar referenced more often than most of the quasi-fancies, these two seem like they might have a chance of gaining traction if people can agree on defining them. Personally I don't think we need to be adding more but... Edited June 15 by Fenntucky Mike GoldFinger1969 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lance A D Posted June 15 Author Report Share Posted June 15 You can’t just make up a definition; you may use an “industry” definition (which can vary from place to place). In our case, we have to live with the PMG definition as posted on their website. - Paper Money Grading - Holders & Labels - Labels Dead End - Resources - Glossary (1/1/18) Dead End You have to find “Fancy Serial Numbers On Currency” from 4/18/17. I have no idea how I got there. https://www.pmgnotes.com/news/article/5901/Fancy-Serial-Numbers-On-Currency/ There you find the PMG definition of “Super Pedigrees.” The definition begins with, “This is when the serial number prefix makes the complete serial something different – something super.” . . . “There are two different scenarios where super fancy pedigrees come into play:” “1. The serial number is already fancy and the prefix adds to the pedigree making it super.” “2. The serial number isn’t fancy at all until the prefix is added – most commonly seen with radar serial numbers.” As soon as I can, I’ll submit pictures of the two mislabeled notes I just got back from PMG. You be the judge. Appreciate your thoughts. GoldFinger1969 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fenntucky Mike Posted June 15 Report Share Posted June 15 On 6/15/2024 at 3:17 PM, Lance A D said: You can’t just make up a definition; you may use an “industry” definition (which can vary from place to place). In our case, we have to live with the PMG definition as posted on their website. - Paper Money Grading - Holders & Labels - Labels Dead End - Resources - Glossary (1/1/18) Dead End You have to find “Fancy Serial Numbers On Currency” from 4/18/17. I have no idea how I got there. https://www.pmgnotes.com/news/article/5901/Fancy-Serial-Numbers-On-Currency/ There you find the PMG definition of “Super Pedigrees.” The definition begins with, “This is when the serial number prefix makes the complete serial something different – something super.” . . . “There are two different scenarios where super fancy pedigrees come into play:” “1. The serial number is already fancy and the prefix adds to the pedigree making it super.” “2. The serial number isn’t fancy at all until the prefix is added – most commonly seen with radar serial numbers.” As soon as I can, I’ll submit pictures of the two mislabeled notes I just got back from PMG. You be the judge. Appreciate your thoughts. I've read the "Super" definition from PMG before and it seems to me that they are only talking about when there are numerals in the prefix and/or suffix, they don't mention letters. It might be worth asking PMG to clarify this as well. When giving the definitions above I was using those that I've read or seen for "super radar" U.S. notes which have no numerical prefix or suffix. People are making up their own or new fancy numbers constantly, most seem ridiculous, some are ok. Time will tell if any are adopted by larger collecting community or by TPG's. GoldFinger1969 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoldFinger1969 Posted June 15 Report Share Posted June 15 Some explanation below: https://www.pcgs.com/news/what-are-radar-notes#:~:text=An example of a super,to be the older notes. Fenntucky Mike 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lance A D Posted June 15 Author Report Share Posted June 15 What has that to do with what we're discussing here? It's interesting, but we don't use that other grading service. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lance A D Posted June 16 Author Report Share Posted June 16 Now back to the subject under discussion, Super Radar $1 FRNs, complying with the PMG definition. PMG states that the “Super Pedigree” applies when the “serial number is already fancy and the prefix adds to the pedigree making it super,” I’m hoping we can agree that a RADAR serial number is a fancy number. The prefix on a $1 FRN is an alpha character. When this prefix character matches the suffix alpha character, the “prefix adds to the pedigree making it super.” I don’t know how one gets around this. What are your thoughts? Please find below two images. The first is of the note recently returned to me that is arguably mislabeled. This started this whole discussion. The second note is indisputably mislabeled. This note was among those accompanying the above note. The back of the PMG holder correctly labels it “Radar-Repeater-Rotator S/N.” The front is all messed up. The series and Friedberg numbers are correct. However, the Block designation plus the serial number are both in error. Hard for me to believe PMG could do that. Appreciate your comments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fenntucky Mike Posted June 16 Report Share Posted June 16 On 6/15/2024 at 10:27 PM, Lance A D said: Now back to the subject under discussion, Super Radar $1 FRNs, complying with the PMG definition. PMG states that the “Super Pedigree” applies when the “serial number is already fancy and the prefix adds to the pedigree making it super,” I’m hoping we can agree that a RADAR serial number is a fancy number. The prefix on a $1 FRN is an alpha character. When this prefix character matches the suffix alpha character, the “prefix adds to the pedigree making it super.” I don’t know how one gets around this. What are your thoughts? Please find below two images. The first is of the note recently returned to me that is arguably mislabeled. This started this whole discussion. The second note is indisputably mislabeled. This note was among those accompanying the above note. The back of the PMG holder correctly labels it “Radar-Repeater-Rotator S/N.” The front is all messed up. The series and Friedberg numbers are correct. However, the Block designation plus the serial number are both in error. Hard for me to believe PMG could do that. Appreciate your comments. Yeah, they definitely flubbed up on the label for the second note. You probably already know but PMG calls this a "mechanical error" and will fix it for free if you contact them. This actually happens more than you'd think, I see mislabeled notes with some frequency and have some in my collection both from submissions I made and notes I've purchased. On 6/15/2024 at 10:27 PM, Lance A D said: PMG states that the “Super Pedigree” applies when the “serial number is already fancy and the prefix adds to the pedigree making it super,” I’m hoping we can agree that a RADAR serial number is a fancy number. The prefix on a $1 FRN is an alpha character. When this prefix character matches the suffix alpha character, the “prefix adds to the pedigree making it super.” I don’t know how one gets around this. What are your thoughts? Yes, a radar is a fancy number and I think that a majority of the collecting community is also accepting of super radars, even though there are apparently two different types. The hold up appears to be that not everyone considers letters to be a part of the serial number and a split on defining what a super radar is, from what I'm seeing each type of "super" radar needs to be named and defined individually. Until these things get ironed out I can understand why PMG is reluctant to start labeling notes as super radars. Does the ANA get involved with things like this? I doubt it, but that is what seems to be needed. GoldFinger1969 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lance A D Posted June 16 Author Report Share Posted June 16 As I read the weekly or monthly literature, I find that a U.S. note is always identified by a serial number that includes the alpha prefix and suffix characters. PMG lives with that identifier on the front of their holders. I’m of the belief that most collectors envision a radar serial number as one where the numbers read the same forward and backward. It’s a palindrome. The alpha characters are not considered unless the prefix and suffix are the same –– a super radar by PMG’s definition. I’m curious about your thoughts on what constitutes a second type of super radar. I will concede that there are “special” radar notes such as the one I posted above. That note is not a super radar. However, I imagine you may find many notes on eBay labeled as a super radar that don’t conform with PMG’s definition. Many eBay sellers play fast and loose with titles in an effort to gain attention and then rip off people. That’s what I believe. GoldFinger1969 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fenntucky Mike Posted June 17 Report Share Posted June 17 On 6/16/2024 at 6:53 PM, Lance A D said: The alpha characters are not considered unless the prefix and suffix are the same –– a super radar by PMG’s definition. I'm not sure that PMG's definition includes alpha prefixes and suffixes, the examples given in the article are all of a numerical prefix being added to the original serial number to make it super. At any rate they don't specifically mention or give examples of an alpha prefix and/or suffix being used to make a super fancy serial number, it would be nice if PMG could clarify this. Obviously they have used them in the not so distant past but things change. On 6/16/2024 at 6:53 PM, Lance A D said: I’m curious about your thoughts on what constitutes a second type of super radar. As mentioned previously, a serial number with the same first and last digit and all of the digits between them being of the same type. For example, 50000005 would be considered a super radar using that definition. I see both definitions frequently with the alpha prefix & suffix being the more regularly used but there is also more of that type. I've also read or seen other definitions for a super radar such as two digits repeating completely through the number like 505050505, not possible on U.S. notes, but these fall more in line with the ebay huckster examples you mentioned. GoldFinger1969 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lance A D Posted June 21 Author Report Share Posted June 21 Mike, I find it curious that no one else has chimed into the forum. I don’t have anything else to say, except to wonder, are we the only two people on the planet who have an interest in this Super Radar labeling question? I was under the impression that PMG had an individual who monitors the forums. I’m surprised that no one from PMG has commented. I’m wondering how I may get their attention. Another phone call to PMG may be a waste of time. Do I have to go public with this issue? I’d like to avoid that at all costs. I’d prefer to have PMG’s problem go away quietly. I would appreciate your thoughts on how best to proceed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fenntucky Mike Posted June 21 Report Share Posted June 21 On 6/21/2024 at 3:17 AM, Lance A D said: Mike, I find it curious that no one else has chimed into the forum. I don’t have anything else to say, except to wonder, are we the only two people on the planet who have an interest in this Super Radar labeling question? Not a lot of traffic here or participation. Not surprising that only a few have chimed in. On 6/21/2024 at 3:17 AM, Lance A D said: I was under the impression that PMG had an individual who monitors the forums. I’m surprised that no one from PMG has commented. I’m wondering how I may get their attention. Another phone call to PMG may be a waste of time. Do I have to go public with this issue? I’d like to avoid that at all costs. I’d prefer to have PMG’s problem go away quietly. I would appreciate your thoughts on how best to proceed. They do but are extremely hands off or don't drop in unless requested, a PMG representative is certainly not going to comment on a subject like this, or any other for that matter, on an open forum. I've never seen it at any rate. You can try posting in the Ask PMG section of the forum but it usually takes a day or two for the post to be approved and responded to. The best way to get an answer is to contact them directly via phone or email. If she is still at PMG you can try contacting Jennifer Fuls, she gets high marks from the paper collecting community. She might be able to answer this for you. jfuls@pmgnotes.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
