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Can It Be There's Been Some Sort Of An Error?

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Fenntucky Mike

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A  Feature Photo/album/album cover art work to get everyone in the Holiday mood. :bigsmile:

I was scouring the world for Ukrainian banknotes the other day and one auction, at a major overseas auction house located in Prague, had 39 PCGS graded Ukrainian banknotes! :whatthe: I've come across PCGS graded Ukrainian banknotes many times, so it's not like it's unusual to see them but typically PMG graded notes out number PCGS graded notes BY A LOT!  A quick search of ebay lists 217 PMG graded notes and 21 PCGS graded notes, a roughly 10:1 difference, and this spread is typical of what I normally see on a daily basis. That's why a listing of 39 PCGS graded notes is shocking to me! The group of notes is IMPRESSIVE, with five Karbowanez issues, several specimens and error notes, the error notes are worth the time just to look at. Here are a few of the more dramatic ones.

1613199260_ukraine-2-hryvni-1992-1996-7601006-Copy(Edit).thumb.jpg.a06e1e8e0eb35e5b28e3b4c6f8a9d41d.jpg

2103928291_ukraine-2-hryvni-1992-1996-7601008-Copy(Edit).thumb.jpg.59c961c49729f882fc780aa5226cd517.jpg

1231674609_ukraine-5-hryven-1992-1996-7601009-Copy(Edit).thumb.jpg.c6a45117d6c1363a6390347e768e187c.jpg

255714014_ukraine-5000-karbovantsiv-1993-1995-nd-7600985-Copy(Edit).thumb.jpg.c602b6dac407a1ad7cc046996c6edbda.jpg

14225483_ukraine-50000-karbovantsiv-1993-error-7600992-Copy(Edit).thumb.jpg.42af507971965d3cd82b33cb6f4a081f.jpg

The fold errors are cool but those inverted overprints are AMAZING! :acclaim: I've a few error notes, including a fold error, but man those overprints are fantastic. I'm super jealous right now, one day though. :wishluck:

The PCGS holders look good and have more information on the labels compared to identical notes graded by PMG. I'm not planning on switching to PCGS graded notes, HELL NO, but I do have a couple that I'm planning on crossing to PMG and the new PCGS holders are an improvement over the old ones. In addition to the 39 notes I have also been seeing a ton of PCGS graded Ukrainian coins, more now than in the last five years combined, right now on ebay there are 116 Ukrainian coins  graded by NGC and 63 PCGS graded coins. A much closer spread than the banknotes. 

The graded notes and coins have me wondering, how big of a play (if at all) is PCGS trying to make in the world market and the banknote market in general, PMG currently has a strangle hold on graded notes in general and NGC is the king of the hill in the world/ancient coin markets. hm Did this auction house submit these and do they have an exclusive deal with PCGS in regards to who they send coins and notes to for grading or were these from a collection and consigned to auction by a collector? I don't know, but it's interesting to see the increase in PCGS graded items in my collecting areas and hopefully it will mean more items get shook loose and hit the auction blocks. A bunch of PCGS graded notes is actually a blessing in disguise as they typically bring less at auction than their PMG counterparts, and the Karbowanez probably will sell for below typical pricing, but the specimen and error notes will be an exception, as the holder they are in should not affect the pricing. I expect these to realize pretty good prices. Especially those overprints. :luhv:

Happy Halloween! 

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Makes me think of a lot I saw recently with a bunch of Zim notes including a ZIM91. Everything was in a PMG holder except the ZIM91, which was PCGS. "Ick. The most important note in the group is in the worst holder."

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It is a little hard for me to take 10G coins in PCGS slabs seriously. With NGC a 67 on a 10G is hard to get. With PCGS, 68s seem far more common. So I'm quite convinced that PCGS is using different standards that are just allowing higher grades.

It makes me glad that PCGS world coins aren't allowed in the registry. I think if they were my currently top ranked set would get curbstomped by those inflated grades.

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On 10/30/2021 at 5:51 PM, Revenant said:

Makes me think of a lot I saw recently with a bunch of Zim notes including a ZIM91. Everything was in a PMG holder except the ZIM91, which was PCGS. "Ick. The most important note in the group is in the worst holder."

I agree "Ick", but probably the worst looking holder is the Banknote Certification Services one, Legacy isn't great looking either. PMG China has a bunch of crazy stuff going on if you ever get a chance to look around. Regardless if the right note came along I'd buy it independent of what it was holdered in, or not. 

On 10/30/2021 at 5:54 PM, Revenant said:

It is a little hard for me to take 10G coins in PCGS slabs seriously. With NGC a 67 on a 10G is hard to get. With PCGS, 68s seem far more common. So I'm quite convinced that PCGS is using different standards that are just allowing higher grades.

It makes me glad that PCGS world coins aren't allowed in the registry. I think if they were my currently top ranked set would get curbstomped by those inflated grades.

That's interesting, I've only crossed a few PCGS coins to NGC and they all crossed at the same grade so far. A lot of the stuff I see is NCLT and usually that stuff will cross either way or be with in a point so it's hard for me to say if the grading is on par, so far it has been. I'm assuming you disagreed with the PCGS 68's, so did they look more like a NGC 67 or something else. 

It's hard to say how one TPG grades a certain coin compared to another, but I agree, I'm glad PCGS world coins are not allowed in the NGC registry but I would probably be ok if they let modern NCLT into the Registry. 

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On 10/31/2021 at 7:57 AM, Fenntucky Mike said:

I'm assuming you disagreed with the PCGS 68's, so did they look more like a NGC 67 or something else. 

Okay, so I'm probably not being fair to PCGS in saying this as I've never seen a PCGS 68 10G in hand, however 1) my 1 MS67 looks no nicer than my NGC 66s, and I sometimes think it might be a hair worse, more like the 65s, and 2) you almost NEVER seen NGC MS67 coins up for sale it feels like but you see PCGS MS68s on a pretty regular basis - purely subjective and not rigorous in my analysis but I've been shopping the dang things off and on for 12 years.

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On 10/31/2021 at 9:17 AM, Revenant said:

Okay, so I'm probably not being fair to PCGS in saying this as I've never seen a PCGS 68 10G in hand, however 1) my 1 MS67 looks no nicer than my NGC 66s, and I sometimes think it might be a hair worse, more like the 65s, and 2) you almost NEVER seen NGC MS67 coins up for sale it feels like but you see PCGS MS68s on a pretty regular basis - purely subjective and not rigorous in my analysis but I've been shopping the dang things off and on for 12 years.

Yeah, it's tough to get universal grading standards for world coins. I'm sure there are standards which were published somewhere, probably in the countries or region they were produced, but to try and get two different TPG's thousands of miles away in a different country to agree is probably not going to happen. Each set it's own standards, most likely, which is a good reason to keep the TPG's separate. 

I was more thinking of what your opinion was based off of pics, it's not the same as in hand but there is probably almost nobody out there who has seen enough of these in hand to give an evaluation between the two TPG's. The 67 is a good comparison. (thumbsu

Edited by Fenntucky Mike
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On 10/31/2021 at 8:29 AM, Fenntucky Mike said:

I was more thinking of what your opinion was based off of pics, it's not the same as in hand but there is probably almost nobody out there who has seen enough of these in hand to give an evaluation between the two TPG's.

The other thing I think I'd have to grapple with that could be hard to account for is the ever present claims of graded inflation. While I reholdered them this year to make them all match, many of my 10Gs used to be in old Fatty holders. I did some digging and, while NGC can't tell me exactly dates, most of my 10G collection was graded in or around 1993, when NGC was only like 6 years old. Those coins were graded nearly 30 years ago.

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On 10/31/2021 at 9:50 AM, Revenant said:

The other thing I think I'd have to grapple with that could be hard to account for is the ever present claims of graded inflation. While I reholdered them this year to make them all match, many of my 10Gs used to be in old Fatty holders. I did some digging and, while NGC can't tell me exactly dates, most of my 10G collection was graded in or around 1993, when NGC was only like 6 years old. Those coins were graded nearly 30 years ago.

The PCGS 67 dropped a grade when crossed, if I remember correctly, and that was in an older holder, so probably graded 10+ years prior to crossing? I think gradeflation is more of a thing for U.S. coins and some of the more popular world collecting areas, I know I don't have to worry about it because there are very few collectors of graded material, or even raw, in my areas. lol 

Yeesh, I didn't realize there were so many 10G's graded. I guess I could see some gradeflation going on there.

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On 10/31/2021 at 9:50 AM, Revenant said:

I did some digging and, while NGC can't tell me exactly dates, most of my 10G collection was graded in or around 1993, when NGC was only like 6 years old. Those coins were graded nearly 30 years ago.

I don't remember but did you consider having them regraded while getting them reholdered? If gradeflation is an actual thing with the 10G's do you think some would have received a bump? :bump:

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On 10/31/2021 at 9:13 AM, Fenntucky Mike said:

I don't remember but did you consider having them regraded while getting them reholdered? If gradeflation is an actual thing with the 10G's do you think some would have received a bump? :bump:

I did give it some thought and when I look at the old 65s vs the newer ones / newer 66s I think it could happen but I haven't done it for a few reasons. Mostly it's a pig and a poke and that's not how I like to spend / risk money and I like the idea of having coins that are strong for the grade more than ones that are more marginal for the grade. And at the end of the day the coin I own is the coin I own regardless of the number. 

Finally, if we're being honest, the current state of the category gives me little reason to be that aggressive. If I actually pick up a more serious challenger I may take a more aggressive stance but currently my closest challenger has half the number of coins and 40% the points.

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