Tarekss1 Posted August 24 Report Share Posted August 24 (edited) Just today an Egyptian note of 50 Piasters dating back to the year 1954 was being advertised on a local Facebook collector's group as being Top Pop with a grade of 66Epq. The note is listed as a Pick29a note and PMG's population table confirms that the top grade for this pick is 66Epq and that there are only 8 notes with a grade of 66Epq and none graded higher. However, shortly after the post was made another follower of the group presented similar paper with a grade of 67Epq. After much heated debate on Facebook we realised that despite the fact that both papers are identical, bearing the same signature of Amin Fikry, and their date of print is just one day apart each was listed under a different pick. The one ranked 67 Epq has been listed as pick 29 and the one ranked 66 Epq was listed under pick 29a. Both notes were printed just one day apart and are bearing the same exact marks and signatures! Shouldn't they have been listed under the same pick number? Moreover, when we checked the serial of the higher ranked note on PMGs verification page nothing came up and it says information is unavailable. Now, this seems to be unfair for those who pay a much higher price for a top graded note. Also, the owner of the higher graded note has no way to prove that his note is a Top Pop note while the owner of lower ranked paper has proof his note is top pop from PMG's website. I would like to know the thoughts of other collectors on this issue and after this incident can we really have any confidence in the data PMG has on its website. Edited August 24 by Tarekss1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fenntucky Mike Posted August 24 Report Share Posted August 24 (edited) On 8/24/2024 at 1:07 PM, Tarekss1 said: Just today an Egyptian note of 50 Piasters dating back to the year 1954 was being advertised on a local Facebook collector's group as being Top Pop with a grade of 66Epq. The note is listed as a Pick29a note and PMG's population table confirms that the top grade for this pick is 66Epq and that there are only 8 notes with a grade of 66Epq and none graded higher. However, shortly after the post was made another follower of the group presented similar paper with a grade of 67Epq. After much heated debate on Facebook we realised that despite the fact that both papers are identical, bearing the same signature of Amin Fikry, and their date of print is just one day apart each was listed under a different pick. The one ranked 67 Epq has been listed as pick 29 and the one ranked 66 Epq was listed under pick 29a. Both notes were printed just one day apart and are bearing the same exact marks and signatures! Shouldn't they have been listed under the same pick number? Moreover, when we checked the serial of the higher ranked note on PMGs verification page nothing came up and it says information is unavailable. Now, this seems to be unfair for those who pay a much higher price for a top graded note. Also, the owner of the higher graded note has no way to prove that his note is a Top Pop note while the owner of lower ranked paper has proof his note is top pop from PMG's website. I would like to know the thoughts of other collectors on this issue and after this incident can we really have any confidence in the data PMG has on its website. I'm not familiar with Egyptian banknotes but the problem seems pretty straight forward to me. The 67EPQ has a "mechanical error" on the label, meaning it was not labeled correctly when graded by PMG, instead of labeling the note as P# 29a they mistakenly left the "a" off of the Pick number. Mechanical error happens more often than you would think or know of, if the owner of the 67EPQ note contacted PMG more than likely they would have him send the note back in to get relabeled at no cost. Once relabeled as a 29a it would show up in the Population report. Another possibility is that PMG changed their nomenclature on how they label these notes, I'm sure you noticed that the 67 EPQ is in what appears to be a Gen 3 holder (2016-2020) while the 66 EPQ is in a Gen 4 holder (2020-Date), meaning that the 67 EPQ was probably graded several years prior to the 66 EPQ. My gut feeling is that PMG will not just change the Population Report without seeing the 67 EPQ note in hand to verify, and that it will have to be sent in. Step 1 is to contact PMG for a corrective action. The PMG Population Report should be taken with a grain of salt and not relied upon as being 100% accurate because it is not, the same can be said about any TPG Population Report. PCGS, Legacy, PMG, none are 100% correct and a buyer is doing themselves a disservice if only relying on a TPG Pop report for information. Lastly, paying top $ for a top pop note will get people in trouble fast. I see that there are currently 53 Egypt Pick # 29a notes listed in the PMG population report, many in very high grade. This leads me to believe that these are not as rare as other notes, ebay seems to back this up as there are several available, and that it is only a matter of time before someone sends in some of these notes that end up grading 67, 68, or higher. What then. Did everyone who bought a 66 while it was top pop over pay? It will more than likely happen. Edited August 24 by Fenntucky Mike Spelling Tarekss1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tarekss1 Posted August 24 Author Report Share Posted August 24 (edited) Well thank you for your answer Mike. The problem that Egyptian collectors all face is that having to send notes back to PMG for regrading is by no means an easy task. It is very costly and sometimes airport customs confiscate the notes for unknown reasons. For that matter, mistakes on labeling notes are very devstating and unfortunate for Egyptian collectors. On the other hand, I do agree with you that paying top dollar for top pop notes is a gamble that is unlikely to payoff,and that it is possible for later graded notes to achieve a higher grade. Nonetheless, it is a well known fact that Egyptian notes printed during this period are highly unlikely to achieve a grade of more than 67/68. So, for this particular note a 67 seems to be a reasonable top grade unless a magical 68 appears somehow! Either way, I really lost much of the confidence I had in PMG's population reports to be honest. Lastly, bear in mind that this is by no means a cheap paper and the owner of the higher graded note is likely to suffer a huge loss because of this mistake/change in how PMG assigns a pick to these notes. It is unfair for someone who cannot send the paper back for regrading to suffer a loss just because PMG decided to add these notes under a different pick number or because they just forgot the put the letter a on the label. Right now, when you verify the note there is absolutely nothing; no image and no population report! Edited August 24 by Tarekss1 Fenntucky Mike 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fenntucky Mike Posted August 24 Report Share Posted August 24 On 8/24/2024 at 2:29 PM, Tarekss1 said: Well thank you for your answer Mike. The problem that Egyptian collectors all face is that having to send notes back to PMG for regrading is by no means an easy task. It is very costly and sometimes airport customs confiscate the notes for unknown reasons. For that matter, mistakes on labeling notes are very devstating and unfortunate for Egyptian collectors. On the other hand, I do agree with you that paying top dollar for top pop notes is a gamble that is unlikely to payoff,and that it is possible for later graded notes to achieve a higher grade. Nonetheless, it is a well known fact that Egyptian notes printed during this period are highly unlikely to achieve a grade of more than 67/68. So, for this particular note a 67 seems to be a reasonable top grade unless a magical 68 appears somehow! Either way, I really lost much of the confidence I had in PMG's population reports to be honest. Lastly, bear in mind that this is by no means a cheap paper and the owner of the higher graded note is likely to suffer a huge loss because of this mistake/change in how PMG assigns a pick to these notes. It is unfair for someone who cannot send the paper back for regrading to suffer a loss just because PMG decided to add these notes under a different pick number or because they just forgot the put the letter a on the label. Right now, when you verify the note there is absolutely nothing; no image and no population report! I've read or heard many stories about the difficulties of sending items in and out of Egypt, understandable that a mislabeled note is much larger disappointment for a person in Egypt than for someone in another country. Technically PMG should/would pay for shipping if it is determined that the label has a mechanical error on it but the owner would have to work with PMG, send images, etc. prior to PMG agreeing to this. Is there a local dealer that the owner could work with? I think it unlikely but I suppose it is possible that PMG may just fix the Population Report without the note being sent in but the owner needs to contact PMG to see it that is something they would agree to do. They have nothing to loose by contacting PMG to see what can be done. Correct, the Population Report is not accurate, at least not to a level that we as collectors, or buyers and sellers, would like. It's unfortunate, and a lesson that I learned very early on, but I do still like to use the Population Reports as a source of general information that I will then go and research. No TPG Population Report is 100% accurate, or ever will be, for many reasons. The 67EPQ note looks as if it is accurately graded, so I would lean towards trusting that it is in fact a 67EPQ, and while the Pick # is missing the appropriate variety letter (a) I imagine that it is easy enough for a collector of these notes to know which variety the note is. Also, since it is a verified certification number from PMG this should put most buyers at ease, even though there is no image of the note (not uncommon for notes in older holders) and that it is not in the Population Report. I would not let it prevent me from buying a note that I collect at any rate. If sold I don't think that the variety letter missing from the label would hurt the final selling price all that much but I do agree that it would not achieve it's top potential. If I was buying a note that I collect under similar circumstances I would want a slight discount as I would want to get this corrected. I wish the owner of the 67 EPQ note the best of luck if they decide to sell, and if they decide to work with PMG to try and get this corrected I hope all goes smoothly and that PMG is able to satisfactorily resolve this. It really is a lovely note. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tarekss1 Posted August 24 Author Report Share Posted August 24 (edited) Well, some people in Egypt do not buy a note unless there is a picture of it available on the website. In addition, this high grade note lost alot of its appeal simply due the fact that there is no population report to show that its the highest graded note thus far. Unfortunately, the Egyptian market is a very hear say market. The owner of the 66 Epq note still insists his note is the top pop note. Meanwhile, The owner of the 67 Epq note has no intention to sell at the moment, but when he does it would be very easy to dissuade potential buyers from buying his note. They will say its problematic and collectors should steer away from it to avoid future losses on their investment ! I also advised him to contact PMG an wish him all the best in resolving the issue. Edited August 24 by Tarekss1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fenntucky Mike Posted August 24 Report Share Posted August 24 (edited) On 8/24/2024 at 3:58 PM, Tarekss1 said: Unfortunately, the Egyptian market is a very hear say market. Interesting, even if the note was sold by a reputable auction house in Egypt? On 8/24/2024 at 3:58 PM, Tarekss1 said: The owner of the 66 Epq note still insists his paper is the a top pop note. Based on everything I'm seeing it's not, the 67 EPQ is the top pop. The only thing to worry about is if the note was in a counterfeit holder, which doesn't seem to be the case. What would the estimated sell price for a 67 EPQ note be? I see a PCGS 66 PPQ and Legacy 66 PPQ notes available for between $150 and $250 USD on ebay. It's also interesting to see that both the PCGS label and the Legacy label identify the notes as Pick # 29 only, I wonder if the Standard Catalog of World Paper Money only listed these notes as Pick # 29 in early editions but in later additions listed the varieties, a & b. That would coincide with the 67 EPQ note in the older holder being listed as #29 and the note in the new holder being listed as #29a. It wouldn't be the first time that Pick #'s were added, changed, or removed by the SCWPM making the TPG labels inaccurate. See images below. Edited August 24 by Fenntucky Mike Spelling Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tarekss1 Posted August 25 Author Report Share Posted August 25 Well there are several reputable sellers of course but as i said its all hear and say around here. So, what happens is that they usually carry out disinformation campaigns against each other and a note with no picture and a pick number that is not currently listed in PMG's tables is an easy target. That is not to say that once the owner is interested in selling he won't be able to sell; a well informed collector might ignore whatever bs is being circulated and buy it anyways. Nonetheless, he might not get what its worth. The highest estimate you came by is 250 dollars, yet given the current sale prices in Egypt I would say that the 67 note could easily be worth at least double the amount. Graded notes and coins in Egypt are generally sold for much higher prices compared to auction houses like heritage or spink. Afterall why bother to bring back the note to Egypt after grading it abroad if it won't be well worthwhile to do so! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fenntucky Mike Posted August 25 Report Share Posted August 25 As I suspected, older editions of The Standard Catalog of World Paper Money did not list any varieties for Egypt, Pick #29. Below is an image for the Egypt Pick # 29 listing from the 10th edition (2003) of the SCWPM. This means that the 67 EPQ note was most likely graded by PMG prior to the SCWPM adding the a & b varieties for this Pick #, and is absolutely authentic and the Top Pop so far as we know. I'm not discounting the possibility that there are other 50 Piastres notes in old PMG holders that are also graded 67 EPQ or higher. Pick number changes happen frequently enough that PMG has a disclaimer and procedure for when this happens, see below from the PMG website. If I was the owner of the 67 EPQ note the first thing I would do is email PMG to see if they can include this note in the population report, secondly I might contact the PMG registry to see if they would include the 67 EPQ in one of the Egyptian registry sets, specifically the slot for P# 29a. Haters are going to hate, try to protect their personal interests, and drag others through the mud. I wouldn't have had any problem purchasing the 67 EPQ prior to discovering that the SCWPM changed the Pick numbers, but now if the owner of the 67 EPQ presented the information in this thread they should have no problem with getting very close to top dollar for their note. I would still try to work with PMG to update the population report or get the note in a registry set under the full Pick number but there is little doubt that the 67 EPQ note is the Top Pop, single finest. Unless another surfaces. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
