Watermark Question on Graded Note

[Muzzer42]

Some of these Housenotes from De La Rue do not have "the apple" next to Newton's head. It would seam to me that this should be included with the watermark description. Can you give me some feedback on this?

Thank you, 

[Jennifer F.]

Good morning.  For test notes the labels do tend to be a little more vague since there can be a number of different variations and they will all end up as unlisted numbers.  Rather than end up with many similar but slightly different varieties, we sometimes just put them under one blanket unlisted number.  If you would like to send the note back in for a reholder and specify to have that added to the label, we can do that but you would have to pay the regular reholder fee.  

Thank you.

 

[Muzzer42]

Hi Jennifer,

Geez, maybe I'm alone in feeling this process you have just described is unfair and ridiculous to the collector but I don't think so. There aren't endless types of test notes. It is reasonable to expect the submitter to pay the posted grading fee and in return the collector expects to receive accurate notations regarding the note on the label.  Why would a collector ever be ok with accepting sloppy or missing notations on the label after shelling out the "Economy Special" Fee of $40 per note. There better be accurate and complete descriptions. This is appalling you would try and pass this off back to me and ask if I want the description corrected then I need to send it back to you at an additional charge. This is not cheap. The reholder fee, the processing fee and the shipping fee.  I understand the Unlisted Number but other differences that make this note different such as a Serial Number, Watermark(s), Printer, Issuer, Date and Amount as applicable need to be taken into consideration.  THIS is what makes collecting fun, to have a series of notes that can be distinguished in part by the differences noted on their label. I believe all collectors who submit notes to PMG expect and rely on the fact you will properly grade and notate these various identifications on the label without further request.

On this particular note series variations include ( with or without graph) (with or without serial number) (with or without Newton's Apple) to name a few.

My note submitted lacks any notation of the Graph and partial watermark - Missing the Apple watermark.

I have not given up on PMG yet but I certainly want to avoid this experience from ever happening again. This will also help other collectors who submit notes so they can avoid receiving partial descriptions on their labels. What option do you offer so notes submitted to you in the future can be identified completely the first time around?  What do I need to give PMG?   I have other notes pending submission so I await your reply. 

 

 

[Jennifer F.]

Good afternoon.  Sorry for the delay, our Research Manager was out of the country and I had to wait for him to return to get an answer for you.  He advises: We asked out test note expert about his questions.  First we added '& Apple' to the label.  Second, our expert was not familiar with a test note without the apple.  If the customer has a image/scan of this note without the apple we would like to see that.  If there is really a note without the apple, this can also be because of a "MIS-CUT". The "problem" with these prints is that they are not always 100% quality, what means that the watermark may be in different positions on the note. So if the watermark is located far at the end of either the left or right border of the note it may also be that the apple was just "cut away" because the watermark was misplaced to the far end of the note.  If it is existing it is very important that it is existing ON THIS PARTICULAR TYPE OF NOTE. Because as mentioned there are many varieties of the Newton Note (like color proofs or the OPTIKS with window) which are showing a portrait of NEWTON but are not the "NEWTON ONE FULL COLOR PRINT" note type.

Hopefully, this information helps.  Thank you!

[Muzzer42]

Hi Jennifer,

Thank you for responding. I'm aware there are approximately 6 variations to this note. The "apple" watermark is either with Newton or not. This watermark is not random and not part of original watermarked paper. If the apple was part of a mis-cut and therefore missing, then a third of the note would be missing along with Newton. It would be reasonable in this case neither would be on label because they are not on the note. So to get back to the mysterious note with the "missing apple"; You may be familiar with the note below since it was recently graded by PMG. It DOES NOT not have the "apple". I did have to resend the note back so the Serial Number could be added. We discussed this in a recent previous post. The note below has Cert# 8060611-001.

[Muzzer42]

Hi Jennifer,

This is another example of this test note that does have the apple watermark with Newton but DOES NOT have the graph or serial number. Just another reference for your research department. Please advise on my original question of how I can get my note corrected  now that everyone knows this test note does not always have the apple watermark. 

Thank you,

[Muzzer42]

I recommend your "test note expert" obtain Catalog of Printers' Test Notes, 14th Ed, 2019. PDF electronic file, 811 pages 

The Currency Den offers this CD compilation and it includes pictures and varieties. I think you guys need this because these test notes above are not rare but I like them. They are pretty common and if PMG has questions on this common variety then this would be a great addition to your resources.

[Jennifer F.]

Good afternoon.  In this case there is no error on our part so we could not update anything or change anything for free.  This would not be considered an error as there is no catalog which distinguishes between different watermark types of this test note (or any test note at all). The area of test notes is more or less a place of endless and mostly unknown varieties.  We would advise you to send other test notes in with very clear instructions if you wanted to have specific things pointed out on the label next time and supply as much information as possible.  If you provide additional information about what you would like to have pointed out, we can talk about doing that with our graders as there is no catalog and no official reference for all Newton varieties.

Thank you.

[Muzzer42]

Hi Jennifer,

First of all, there are not endless varieties of test notes. That's ridiculous. Secondly, my original question was why there was no mention of the apple watermark on the note. Why mention half of the watermark? Why not all? You said PMG had done this before so why not now? I've seen graded notes with this notation. It's nice & I wanted my note to have this as well. Why would you make me go through the trouble of getting the answers you asked of me with providing you proof of the note with no "apple watermark" if PMG's position from the beginning is you have done no wrong? Here I have taken the time, thinking I was being helpful. I can tell you from this point forward PMG has absolutely lost my business with any further specimen or test note submissions. I will reconsider my next renewal. I don't appreciate this one bit.