2003 $1, 2$ and $5 notes graded by PMG in GU66 available

[CameoCC]

We have a small group of the 2003 FRN notes available. The GU66 grade is equal to a MS66 Statehood quarter type grade. You can call me at 800.954.0270 if you have an interest in any of these. Here is the pricing.

 

$1 2003 GU66 PMG FRN Philadelphia Fr#1928-C $29.98

 

$2 2003 GU66 PMG FRN Minnaepolis Fr#1937-I $33.98

 

$5 2003 GU66 PMG FRN Cleveland Fr#1990-D $39.98

 

Todd

[Jamericon]

Do you really agree that these notes are worth these prices? If so, is it any other reason expect for certification?

 

Each is available from top paper money dealers at half that price.

[CameoCC]

Thanks for your reply. We approach these notes from a value standpoint. The PMG is not even one year old and we believe that these notes in GU66 are worth these prices.

Here are two reasons:

1. We view these notes like the beginning of the certified Statehood Quarters. Just the 1999 Statehood quarters have increased in value three to five time over the last five years.

2.When PCGS and NGC started, the pool of available coins was larger then and as a result the best coins when in first. Today, twenty years later, the pool of coins is much smaller and one can not find the same coins as they did twenty years ago. I believe the same will be true with currency. Today the pool is large and there is a better chance to find a high quality note, like GU66. As time moves forward, the pool will grow smaller, which will cause the price to go higher.

 

Where can I get these PMG notes for:

$1 2003 GU66 PMG FRN Philadelphia Fr#1928-C $14.98

$2 2003 GU66 PMG FRN Minnaepolis Fr#1937-I $17.00

$5 2003 GU66 PMG FRN Cleveland Fr#1990-D $20.00

 

This is a emerging market and would like to gain an understanding of how one determines the worth of notes?

 

Todd

[Jamericon]

So there is no other reason aside from certification which justifies overpricing these notes.

 

I have seen a few coin dealers jump to the side of paper money since the emergence of PMG and PCGS.

 

Does certification automatically make anyone ready to sell paper money?

[CameoCC]

Jamericon,

 

OK,

 

You said, "So there is no other reason aside from certification which justifies overpricing these notes."

 

The only comparison I can think of is a certified coin. So, are certified coins overpriced? If so, then why do so many certified coins sell and why do so many collectors collect certified coins? Between NGC and PCGS, they have certified over 20,000,000 coins.

 

The main reason why a certified note or coin cost more, in my opinion, is that you have a know grade instead of an unknown grade. How many times have you heard about a person going to a coin shop or coin show trying to sell their coins and having to debate the quality of the raw coin? If the person inherits the coin or collection, they are huge disadvantage for they do not know what the true grade of a coin is. This disadvantage is neutralized with a certified coin. I would suggest it is in the collector’s best interest to have a certified coin as well as a certified note.

 

As an added benefit to a certified note or coin, one has the protection of the note or coin housed in a sealed holder and a guarantee that the note or coin is the grade stated on the holder. One does not have the same benefit with a un-certified note or coin.

 

 

Todd

[Jamericon]

Certified coins are not overpriced on a absolute scale parallel to grade. But they are overpriced when looking at the point to point difference in grade. The premiums paid for one point differences border on the absurd in some instances. It is this same phenomenon that will invade the paper money field.

 

The same guarantee can be had by any collector who takes the time to properly educate themselves about the nuances of grading. Anyone who treats paper money likes a commodity deserves to get bit in the behind when they do not do their homework.

 

As for the comment about physically protecting the note, any good holder available on the market today will do the same. There is absolutely no reason to spend $20+ for a sleeve.

 

You response answers my question that there is no reason to justify asking these prices other than certification. So what if NGC and PCGS have graded 20 million coins. Does certification really add a 50% premium to a note?

 

I have never seen you offer currency before, only coins. Why now?

[CameoCC]

Jamericon,

 

Your points are well taken and I agree that a certified coin can get stupid numbers from one grade to another. For example: a 1926 Sesquicentennial in MS64 has a Greysheet of $450/$490, while in MS65 it is $4000/$4400.

 

Today, a certified note may demand a premium, but was not the same true with the early PCGS and NGC coins (1987-1990)?

 

One has to remember why ANACS, PCGS and NGC were created. Here is a quote from the PCGS website, "In 1985, a small group of the nation's leading rare coin experts recognized that in order for the rare coin industry to realize its potential, several serious problems needed to be addressed. Market participants soon became aware that one of the fundamental factors in determining rare coin values is the physical condition, or grade, of the coin. They learned that a coin graded Mint State 65, for example, may have market value many times greater than the same coin graded Mint State 64 -- although the difference in an MS65 coin and an MS64 coin may be virtually undetectable to the untrained eye. A coin sold by one dealer as an MS65 may be sold by another dealer as an MS64 (or less). In some cases a coin buyer could be victimized by product misrepresentation. In other cases, he was caught in the middle of a dilemma of wide ranging definitions due to the absence of a true standard. In other situations, they were simply caught in the middle of divergent definitions, due to the absence of a universal standard."

 

Could not the same be true of currency?

 

The next question is, how big is the market for certified notes? We believe that there is a huge potential for certified notes just as there is for coins. After all, with over 20,000,000 certified coins in the marketplace that is alot of collectors. Could currency achieve this? I think yes.

 

We have just started to certify currency and the reason is that we think there is demand for certified currency in the marketplace. I will say that there is much to learn and the NGC message board is a good place for school.

 

Todd

[whoopig01]

Jamericon,

 

Your points are well taken and I agree that a certified coin can get stupid numbers from one grade to another. For example: a 1926 Sesquicentennial in MS64 has a Greysheet of $450/$490, while in MS65 it is $4000/$4400.

 

Today, a certified note may demand a premium, but was not the same true with the early PCGS and NGC coins (1987-1990)?

 

One has to remember why ANACS, PCGS and NGC were created. Here is a quote from the PCGS website, "In 1985, a small group of the nation's leading rare coin experts recognized that in order for the rare coin industry to realize its potential, several serious problems needed to be addressed. Market participants soon became aware that one of the fundamental factors in determining rare coin values is the physical condition, or grade, of the coin. They learned that a coin graded Mint State 65, for example, may have market value many times greater than the same coin graded Mint State 64 -- although the difference in an MS65 coin and an MS64 coin may be virtually undetectable to the untrained eye. A coin sold by one dealer as an MS65 may be sold by another dealer as an MS64 (or less). In some cases a coin buyer could be victimized by product misrepresentation. In other cases, he was caught in the middle of a dilemma of wide ranging definitions due to the absence of a true standard. In other situations, they were simply caught in the middle of divergent definitions, due to the absence of a universal standard."

 

Could not the same be true of currency?

 

The next question is, how big is the market for certified notes? We believe that there is a huge potential for certified notes just as there is for coins. After all, with over 20,000,000 certified coins in the marketplace that is alot of collectors. Could currency achieve this? I think yes.

 

We have just started to certify currency and the reason is that we think there is demand for certified currency in the marketplace. I will say that there is much to learn and the NGC message board is a good place for school.

 

Todd

 

 

The problem I see is that the market for the grading service has already been established and more notes will be certified in the infancy stages of currency grading than were done so in coinage grading. This will result in far more notes in higher grades than were coins at the same age of the service.A lot has been learned since the early days of grading and I do not believe that just because you get a new note graded early in a high grade holder will put any premium on it.

[CameoCC]

whoopig01,

 

Fair enough.

 

Based upon the limited knowledge I have and the several hundred notes we have submitted to PMG, one of the main causes for a higher grade is the centering of the print on the note. I have looked at ten times the amount of notes we have submitted and found that centering is a major problem with notes. I have been told that the BEP has four stages for the printing of notes. First they print the back, next the print the front, then the serial number and seal and finally they cut the sheet into individual notes. Each of these stages may cause the print to misalign on the note. Perhaps currency collectors will now start looking at the centerness of each note and then realize that some notes are rarer than others.

 

If one were to look twenty years down the road, I wonder how much greater value the collector will find in today’s notes even if it has a premium cost today?

 

What do you think?

 

Todd

[whoopig01]

I look at new note certification like the grading of new coins. The sheer number of coins graded will deflate any future premium whether it is 20 or 100 years. Look at some of the coins hoarded in the past. They look great but do not carry much premium. They are usually the lowest valued ones in the set.

[CameoCC]

whoopig01,

 

True. The Statehood quarter program has brought in millions of new collectors to the coin industry. Will these same Statehood quater collectors find collecting certified notes just as fun?

 

Todd

[whoopig01]

They may,but I still think new note certification is not a premium market. If you are looking at selling to new collectors with those prices you are just looking for an easy mark. Currency grading sshould be for older notes and specialty currency.

[CameoCC]

whoopig01,

 

One can debate the merits of traditional notes compared to modern notes and there respective values, but it is a no win debate. It is like comparing traditional coins to modern coins, each side believes they are right and the other side is wrong.

 

I choose to collect because I enjoy the note or coin, not because one’s opinion is that one is real collecting while the other is not.

 

Todd

[cpm9ball]

Thanks for your reply. We approach these notes from a value standpoint. The PMG is not even one year old and we believe that these notes in GU66 are worth these prices.

Here are two reasons:

1. We view these notes like the beginning of the certified Statehood Quarters. Just the 1999 Statehood quarters have increased in value three to five time over the last five years.

2.When PCGS and NGC started, the pool of available coins was larger then and as a result the best coins when in first. Today, twenty years later, the pool of coins is much smaller and one can not find the same coins as they did twenty years ago. I believe the same will be true with currency. Today the pool is large and there is a better chance to find a high quality note, like GU66. As time moves forward, the pool will grow smaller, which will cause the price to go higher.

 

Where can I get these PMG notes for:

$1 2003 GU66 PMG FRN Philadelphia Fr#1928-C $14.98

$2 2003 GU66 PMG FRN Minnaepolis Fr#1937-I $17.00

$5 2003 GU66 PMG FRN Cleveland Fr#1990-D $20.00

 

This is a emerging market and would like to gain an understanding of how one determines the worth of notes?

 

Todd

 

Todd, in my opinion, comparing the FRN's to the 1999 States Quarters sets is misleading and a disservice to the collecting public and the hobby, itself. The States Quarters program was like none other in the history of the Mint. Not only was it the first change in the quarter since 1932, but the legislation mandated five different reverse designs every year. The reason for the astronomical jump in value for the '99 sets was because the program attracted tens of millions of new collectors to the hobby practically overnight. Many of them, however, became interested too late to be able to purchase these sets directly from the Mint before the '99 products were discontinued.

 

You can't say that for these FRN's. How many people have been drawn to the hobby as a result of these "phenomenal" issues? All I can say is, "If you really believe what you are saying, here, I have some choice property on the moon that I can sell you at pre-construction prices. Don't miss out on this fantastic deal!"

 

The fact that you are referencing the TPG's to try to support your argument is nothing more than the "hype" we ordinarily hear from the "Big Three"...........QVC, SaH & HSN. I think you should do one of two things...........either take this to the "Marketplace" where it should have been in the first place, or get a job with one of the "Big Three"!

 

Chris

[CameoCC]

cpm9ball,

 

My comparison of Statehood quarters is forced, but the FRN's are a new an emerging market and no one knows what they will do. I do think buying FRN's is an opportunity and risk for both currency collectors and coin collectors.

 

What do they say, "no risk, no gain."

 

I will do as you suggest and let both of us see what the collectors say, both in the marketplace and TV.

 

Todd

[Eagle1]

Well, here is my view...I would not call myself a collector of paper money but I have several notes from the late 1800's and early 1900's (large notes, mostly silver certificates).

 

I, on ocassion, will buy a note that I find interesting due to the history or is attractive due to the artwork. I don't buy them to have the finest known or to run up registry sets, but I do appreciate quality so I tend to buy notes grading GU65.

 

For me, the appeal of buying paper money that has been graded by an organization such as PMG is purely peace of mind. I can acquire a nice example with minimal concern for becoming a victim of fraud. If I spend $1k for a graded note, it does not bother me in the least to pay a small premium (say $50) for not having to invest the hours required to tell the diference between a clean note and an altered or fake note.

 

That's a small percentage (5%) of a note valued at $1k, but its a huge percentage if I were to buy say a modern $5 note. Personally I probably would not bite on a modern note with such a high premium, but just like in the stock market diferent people have different levels of risk (speculation). Some people might feel that a graded modern $5 note might be woth $1k someday in the future and feel the risk is worthwhile.

 

I don't think that CameoCC is doing anything wrong, and its a stretch to compare them to HSN, just as Todd's example of the 1999 state quarter was a bit of a stretch. They are in this hobby as a business (to make money) not as a collector. They are testing the market to see what it brings. But, I also think this is an excellent thread that provides a balanced discussion and makes a great point for consideration by potential buyers.

 

The market will be the ultimate decision maker on who is correct. As for me, I would rather wrestle with how much of a premium I am willing to pay for a graded item, then to wrestle with the question am I smarter than the forger.