Significant Grading variances 1 1

[Lamb7]

I recently received back a submission that showed significant variances from the purchased grades. The notes were acquired from Noonan’s and London Coins Auction Houses in Uncirculated condition, but were both graded PMG 45.

Has anyone else encountered such significant grading variances?

Thanks David

[Fenntucky Mike]

On 11/17/2024 at 6:48 AM, Lamb7 said:

I recently received back a submission that showed significant variances from the purchased grades. The notes were acquired from Noonan’s and London Coins Auction Houses in Uncirculated condition, but were both graded PMG 45.

Has anyone else encountered such significant grading variances?

Thanks David

Not personally as of yet, , but I've seen plenty of auction listings where I did not agree with the stated condition of the note/s. It's also possible that PMG mislabeled the notes with a lower grade than given or they just flubbed up. 

The difference between an UNC note and one graded 45 should be fairly obvious. What did you think of the notes in hand? Do you think they are UNC?

[Lamb7]

Thanks for your reply. I thought both the notes were UNC, but I did examine then under normal lighting. I have just been reading your posts on using UV lights and was wondering if this might show up some flaws that were missed?

You should be able to see the notes on PMG site. 2165354-017 and 2165354-002. I have not attached these to my sets yet.

[Fenntucky Mike]

On 11/17/2024 at 10:37 AM, Lamb7 said:

I have just been reading your posts on using UV lights and was wondering if this might show up some flaws that were missed?

UV lighting can help but probably the biggest help is to view note using some side-lighting by holding them 90 deg to a lamp bulb or better yet using a handheld flashlight to shine light across the surface of the note. 

On 11/17/2024 at 10:37 AM, Lamb7 said:

You should be able to see the notes on PMG site. 2165354-017 and 2165354-002. I have not attached these to my sets yet.

I took a look at note 2165354-017, fabulous looking note by the way, and it appears to have two vertical folds in it which would automatically knock it out of any uncirculated grade. PMG also did not assign the note its EPQ designation which probably means the note was pressed in someway, either in a book or other such form. If the note was pressed then that would make the folds much more difficult to detect if just casually viewing in hand.

[Lamb7]

I used side-lighting to check all my notes before sending them in, and they have in the past been within a grade either side of what I expected/purchased at.

That is why I was so surprised by the grades, and asked customer services if these could be reviewed, as I am reluctant to pay out £100 for regrading without understanding what flaws they found.

I had no luck with my request, and have asked if I can get hold of the grading notes before deciding what to do next.

I have now purchased a UV light having read your posts, but from your reply above, I don’t have much hope that it will provide any answers.

[Lamb7]

I agree it is a lovely looking note and I was expecting a high grade. The two vertical lines either side of the security thread are common for white fivers. I have the same note that (type difference due to serial number) shows this nicely – 2164126-007 PMG 66 EPQ.

I recently had a note regraded to 65 EPQ with a note added “As Made Indentation”, but this only cost £12 so I was happy to take the chance that they notice that the note did not have a fold.

As for the EPQ designation, I don’t believe they always get this right. I have a brand new King Charles £5 (398a) that was graded PMG 64 even though it has just been released. There are 442 notes in the PMG register and only this one has not an EPQ designation! As it is a low value note it doesn’t matter so much, although I will follow it up with PMG at some point, to try an understand how they determine if a note has been pressed.   

[Fenntucky Mike]

On 11/18/2024 at 11:30 AM, Lamb7 said:

I had no luck with my request, and have asked if I can get hold of the grading notes before deciding what to do next.

Hopefully there are graders notes for these, they are helpful in understanding why an assigned grade was given to a note. They don't always have them though.

On 11/18/2024 at 11:30 AM, Lamb7 said:

I have now purchased a UV light having read your posts, but from your reply above, I don’t have much hope that it will provide any answers.

It may not but it's worth a try and it's always handy to have one for examining notes regardless. The UV may show creases or folds more clearly if the note was pressed and cleaned but usually backlighting and sidelighting the note will show most if not all of the folds and/or creases if present. 

On 11/18/2024 at 11:55 AM, Lamb7 said:

The two vertical lines either side of the security thread are common for white fivers. I have the same note that (type difference due to serial number) shows this nicely – 2164126-007 PMG 66 EPQ.

Good to know, I'm not familiar with these but unless the vertical lines are as made then I would expect that they would be considered folds and drop the grade. I looked up the 66 and it seems to be in considerably better condition than the 45. I circled two areas that look like folds on the 45 to show what I'm looking at, pretty typical areas to expect a fold/s for a large note like this as I imagine that they would trifold these a lot of the time. I'm also wondering if the note wasn't folded down the center as well. At any rate the 66 does not appear to show these markings and that could be the difference or one of the reasons for the lower grades on the other two.

On 11/18/2024 at 11:55 AM, Lamb7 said:

As for the EPQ designation, I don’t believe they always get this right. I have a brand new King Charles £5 (398a) that was graded PMG 64 even though it has just been released. There are 442 notes in the PMG register and only this one has not an EPQ designation! As it is a low value note it doesn’t matter so much, although I will follow it up with PMG at some point, to try an understand how they determine if a note has been pressed.   

Correct they don't always get this right, nor the grade, and have "mechanical errors" with the labeling, etc.. Nothing is 100%. I'm a little surprised by a new KCIII not receiving an EPQ designation but not shocked as PMG will drop the EPQ designation for other reasons besides pressing, the paper could have been exceptionally limp, or the embossing nonexistent, etc.. 

Edited November 21 by Fenntucky Mike

[Lamb7]

Thanks very much for the additional information it's been very helpful. Can I ask a couple more questions you might be able to help with?

Do you know when they tend to have graders notes? I would have thought that below PMG 55 they would have notes as the grade can be based on multiple flaws? I was also wondering how they arrive at a consensus for a note, when multiple professionals examine each note to ensure accuracy and consistency?

With regards embossing, are all banknotes embossed as there seems to be a lack of information available on what embossing is included on different notes?  And is the only wat to check the embossing is by touch?

 

[Fenntucky Mike]

On 11/20/2024 at 12:38 PM, Lamb7 said:

Do you know when they tend to have graders notes?

Not specifically but my guess would be rarely. The one time I asked if there were any graders notes for some pieces I sent in they did have some, but the pieces I was inquiring about were labeled as an ineligible type and returned uncertified. I think it is much more likely that PMG would have graders notes on pieces they declined to authenticate or rejected than on pieces that they didn't have any real questions of authenticity on or pieces that did not have any major issues. The one other thing I'll add is that the sooner you ask if there are graders notes the better, as even if there are no actual hand typed/written notes the grading team may remember the notes/submission and provide some comments.

On 11/20/2024 at 12:38 PM, Lamb7 said:

I would have thought that below PMG 55 they would have notes as the grade can be based on multiple flaws?

My understanding is, no, not typically, especially for notes that just exhibit normal wear and tear, if there is some major condition issue PMG would normally list that on the back of the holder. Something like, "previously mounted", or "residue", or "pinholes", etc..

On 11/20/2024 at 12:38 PM, Lamb7 said:

I was also wondering how they arrive at a consensus for a note, when multiple professionals examine each note to ensure accuracy and consistency?

What I've read is that all pieces are examined by at least two graders and if the two graders are in agreement, each having entered a grade for the note into the system anonymously, then the note goes on it's merry way. If there is a discrepancy then the note goes to a "finalizer" to break the tie. Could be wrong on that but from what I remember reading it was something along those lines.

On 11/20/2024 at 12:38 PM, Lamb7 said:

With regards embossing, are all banknotes embossed as there seems to be a lack of information available on what embossing is included on different notes?  And is the only wat to check the embossing is by touch?

On some level all notes will have embossing but on notes like the fivers I wouldn't expect that there would be any meaningful embossing due to the printing method used. On the KCIII notes, and most modern notes, there can be raised areas of ink which were designed into the note or depending on the printing method most of the ink used for the design will feel "raised". For all notes made via intaglio printing you should be able to feel the raised ink on a new note. Embossing can mean other things on notes as well and it can be a bit confusing, I don't quite have it all nailed down myself. 

Edited November 21 by Fenntucky Mike
Clarification

[Lamb7]

Thanks very much, you have provided a lot of detailed information that helps a lot in understanding how the grading process works.  This will be useful in considering what notes to submit in the future.

[GoldFinger1969]

On 11/17/2024 at 6:48 AM, Lamb7 said:

I recently received back a submission that showed significant variances from the purchased grades. The notes were acquired from Noonan’s and London Coins Auction Houses in Uncirculated condition, but were both graded PMG 45.  Has anyone else encountered such significant grading variances?  Thanks David

They SAID they were uncirculated ?  Or they called them that ?  

I have some bills that are AU or EF graded and from pictures at least you would think they were MS-quality uncirculated, but they are NOT.  It's harder to see the fold/crease defects in bills than the equivalent defects in coins that drop them from MS.

Edited November 28 by GoldFinger1969

[Lamb7]

I purchased a UV Banknote detector. which unfortunately didn’t provide any answers as to why my T16 was graded PMG 45. On the plus side it does clearly show the varnish on my Elizabeth Fry £5 Notes, making it much easier to distinguish a B393 Full Halo from a B395 Cut Halo. 

[GoldFinger1969]

On 11/21/2024 at 9:03 AM, Lamb7 said:

Thanks very much, you have provided a lot of detailed information that helps a lot in understanding how the grading process works.  This will be useful in considering what notes to submit in the future.

You are collecting/submitting foreign bank notes, right ?

Mike has expertise in foreign stuff but most of what I have or have read about is domestic U.S. post-1928. 

[Lamb7]

Yes my collection interest is English notes.

It is helpful getting other Collectors experience on grading. So that I can establish which notes to submit for grading.

[GoldFinger1969]

On 12/4/2024 at 11:50 AM, Lamb7 said:

Yes my collection interest is English notes.

It is helpful getting other Collectors experience on grading. So that I can establish which notes to submit for grading.

As a general rule, you don't want to spend $30 to grade a bill that is only worth $40, unless it has some sentimental value and/or you want it in a nice protective, certified holder (though you can buy decent ones without labels and certification on the cheap).

If you are buying raw ungraded bills....and you are pretty sure about your grading skills such that you know they are worth lots more than the cost to grade...then it might be economical to submit those.  Myself, virtually all of what I buy is already graded.

I have HUNDREDS of bills -- some in high-AU or MS condition -- that it simply isn't worth it to grade.  Mostly $1 bills and Silver Certificates...even if worth 10x FV it will cost 2x as much to grade 'em and they are so plentiful resale is really not an option in the future (my LCS won't even take/buy them except maybe for FV).